What's the actual benefit of 'hollow' over solid pole elastic or are we being misled?

dave brittain 1

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So where is the manufacturers data that you believe my data to be different to?
I 'expect' that the brands selling the elastic are not the manufacturers at all and give info that is factually incorrect.
What do you think of this endorsed matrix video at 1:25? If it stretches to 600% more than latex stretches (commonly quoted as 6), it would stretch to 36 x it's original length.

This would make your 2.5m example on your previous post stretch to 295 feet! Do you believe this because it official from matrix?
Mork if you apply a bit of common sense what he's trying to say is that hybrid elastic stretches to 600% of it's original length that's a 6 X factor, no arguments from me I can see through the mistake he's made.

You've disregarded the measurements that I took this evening using KND and Nick Gilbert hollow plus Middy and Frenzee solid. You've also disregarded what I've told you about how elastics work in the real world catching fish and what the manufacturers have said but here are a few links because unlike some people, I will support any arguments with supporting information or alternatively back up what I say on the bank putting what I state into practice.

Browning hollow 7 x stretch factor Browning Stretch 7 Hollow Elastic

Matrix hybrid 6 X factor see the video you put up but apply some common sense as the angler may have been nervous when he made the video and has misquoted the stretch characteristics.

A statement from Drennan as reflected in my original post where they state, "It has excellent stretch, recovery and fish-playing characteristics, stretching out much further and longer than solid latex elastic." Bungee | Drennan International

And last but not least here is a link to Vespe one of the largest pole elastic suppliers stating a claimed stretch factor of 850% for their hollow bi-core elastic. https://vespe.com/shop/pole-elastic/hollow-elastic/e²-hollow-elastic

There's nothing else to say on this subject except if solid has exactly the same stretch factor as you have stated, better recovery/stopping power/retraction and is less than half the weight of a hollow equivalent, why do the majority of top uk anglers prefer hollow, despite paying almost double the price for it not to mention the fact that a heavy hollow also significantly affects the balance of a pole at length?

When you can answer the above, I may have time to listen.
 

Mork

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Mork if you apply a bit of common sense what he's trying to say is that hybrid elastic stretches to 600% of it's original length that's a 6 X factor, no arguments from me I can see through the mistake he's made.

You've disregarded the measurements that I took this evening using KND and Nick Gilbert hollow plus Middy and Frenzee solid. You've also disregarded what I've told you about how elastics work in the real world catching fish and what the manufacturers have said but here are a few links because unlike some people, I will support any arguments with supporting information or alternatively back up what I say on the bank putting what I state into practice.

Browning hollow 7 x stretch factor Browning Stretch 7 Hollow Elastic

Matrix hybrid 6 X factor see the video you put up but apply some common sense as the angler may have been nervous when he made the video and has misquoted the stretch characteristics.

A statement from Drennan as reflected in my original post where they state, "It has excellent stretch, recovery and fish-playing characteristics, stretching out much further and longer than solid latex elastic." Bungee | Drennan International

And last but not least here is a link to Vespe one of the largest pole elastic suppliers stating a claimed stretch factor of 850% for their hollow bi-core elastic. https://vespe.com/shop/pole-elastic/hollow-elastic/e²-hollow-elastic

There's nothing else to say on this subject except if solid has exactly the same stretch factor as you have stated, better recovery/stopping power/retraction and is less than half the weight of a hollow equivalent, why do the majority of top uk anglers prefer hollow, despite paying almost double the price for it not to mention the fact that a heavy hollow also significantly affects the balance of a pole at length?

When you can answer the above, I may have time to listen.
I have NOT disregarded what you have said. I'm respecting and absorbing it. I just haven't seen the evidence of peoples claims.
I am also bemused why people buy hollow at a higher price when my tests only show negatives of hollow.
Thanks for your supporting 'marketing' info - I will soon show you some actual data and will repeat if people see a flaw in my test.

This is also their website that makes the same claim in writing Product
It claims 'unrivalled' stretch at 600% more than latex.
Watch the official video on that link - at 45 seconds.
That's more than a single individuals 'slip of the tongue'
It's their official claim!
That's the problem with using alleged 'official' data with no supporting evidence. I will show my evidence.
 
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lliopp

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What about hydro, the hollow that isn't, as it filled with liquid?
 

RMNDIL

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Sorry but that's simply not right.
Sorry Mark but I am 100% correct. I have tested a LOT of elastic (mostly latex based rather than so called Hybrid although I have checked out quite a few as well) over many, many years and with the latex mixes the hollows for sure, most definitely because I measured them all, ALL stretched much further than solid latex threads in equivalent material area/volume or not. No matter size. For example ANY diameter of tested of Polemaster Carp Bungee stretched much further than any diameter tested of Polemaster or Kamasan elastic I have. And I know where they are made. and how. Diameter & cross sectional area & volume of material, although for an exact comparison I understand why it should normally be referred to and I calibrated it anyway for all tested, didn't matter. The results were always the same. Thin Bungee, thick Bungee = same result. 2m of coloured solid latex struggled to get to 10m and was tighter than a guitar string with a lot of force needed to get there. Bungee easily got 2m up to 12m - with less force required - and would go further.

Also see my post 28th August.

Hybrids are different.
 

RMNDIL

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By the way Matrix Slik is a Hybrid not 'proper' Latex. Different compound = different properties
 

Mork

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Please note that this is not a point scoring competition. Constructive questions/comments/suggestions welcome to help all...
Let me know if you spot any errors and I'll make adjustments...

Note that I wish to correct a mistake on a previous post of mine. I have now weighed both elastics tested with scales of 0.1g resolution and can confirm that the hollow tested is approximately 25% heavier than the same length solid tested.

As promised, please see plot of my data attached below. To make the test practical;
100mm lengths of elastic were used in air & water (not in pole)
ambient of 20c & retested in 20c bath water
each stretch measurement was taken in ascending stretch order, one after the other with 2 sec stabilisation
it was observed that at the higher loads, the load was relaxing quicker on the hollow (even within the 2 sec), accounting for the slight curve divergence on the steeper part of the curves.
once at the max stretch, the elastic was left stretched for 20 sec before the retraction test
each retraction measurement was taken in descending order, one after the other with 2 sec stabilisation

note; the load reduced over the 20 seconds, hence the discrepancy between the end of the stretch and start of the retract test (top right of curves)

To make this more visual & tangible, I have created a test by joining the 2 elastics together in series and stretching them both at the same time. Without and precise measurements, it is visually obvious that the 2 elastics stretch out at roughly the same rate, and contract completely differently, where you'll clearly see the hollow is twice as long as the solid at times. Video to be uploaded at later date/time!

Please note that I have no incentive / ulterior motive motive to mislead people. The tests have been done purely out of my own 'nerdy' interest!

When you look at the plots, note how much elastic would be left out of the pole whilst the fish was being brought in after a long run (blue & red dot). This can be mitigated by using a puller or extra sections to account for the excessive hysteresis in the hollow elastic.
elastic2.jpg
 

Mork

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What about hydro, the hollow that isn't, as it filled with liquid?
Dunno - I haven't got any to test. I guess that I could fill my hollow with distilled water - but that wouldn't be the real hydro product...
 

Mork

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Simple and obvious error on their part. I wouldn't hang them for it
I'm not sure that so many people can make the same error in multiple places. If it simply has a 600% stretch factor - then that can hardly be considered unrivalled! Just goes to show that you can't trust the supplier if you want correct information!
 

Mork

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To sum up, hollow is a bit stretchier than solids and weighs a bit more but we all knew that anyway, 👍 😁
Have you seen the test results?
Some people have been fooled into thinking hollows stretch more
Some people are rightly sceptical, as the test results show that hollows and solids are similar.
Yes - hollows cost more
Yes - hollows weigh more (if they have more layers than the elastic itself)
Hollows suffer more from hysteresis thus requiring increased use of a puller
Hollows suffer from increased friction due to increase contact area
It's the cross-sectional area and the properties of the materials that are used that govern how much it stretches (not the shape).
 

Maesknoll

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Have you seen the test results?
Some people have been fooled into thinking hollows stretch more
Some people are rightly sceptical, as the test results show that hollows and solids are similar.
Yes - hollows cost more
Yes - hollows weigh more (if they have more layers than the elastic itself)
Hollows suffer more from hysteresis thus requiring increased use of a puller
Hollows suffer from increased friction due to increase contact area
It's the cross-sectional area and the properties of the materials that are used that govern how much it stretches (not the shape).

All of that is totally irrelevant, I use solids, hybrids and hollows, all for specific tasks and the reason I do that is that I have confidence that I will land more fish using my chosen elastic, it’s how it affects the pole and reacts to the way I fish when playing fish that matters, even if that is pure perception on my part. I have tried most makes/ types over a period before I settled on what I use now.
 

Neil ofthe nene

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All of that is totally irrelevant, I use solids, hybrids and hollows, all for specific tasks and the reason I do that is that I have confidence that I will land more fish using my chosen elastic, it’s how it affects the pole and reacts to the way I fish when playing fish that matters, even if that is pure perception on my part. I have tried most makes/ types over a period before I settled on what I use now.
I am exactly the same, though our choices will be different. I use what I'm comfortable with and confident in.
 

RMNDIL

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Have you seen the test results?
Some people have been fooled into thinking hollows stretch more
It's the cross-sectional area and the properties of the materials that are used that govern how much it stretches (not the shape).
Yes, we've seen your results on those 2 elastics. BUT my test results on different elastics - 'REAL' latex solid & hollow (the sort we have all been using for years & years and why we all started to use hollow in the first place for certain applications) show hollow Latex stretches far more than solid Latex. It's a fact. Doesn't matter what sizes I compared. Trust me, i've been doing it for years.

What actually matters most is the COMPOUND used to make each elastic (and pigments and type of pigments). Like solid nylon monofilament; change the blend, change the processing, change the characteristics of the line. That's why the 'original' or 'traditional' Latex types in solid & hollow perform VERY differently and people could see and feel this difference so adapted what they did to suit.

As I keep saying Hybrids are different. because you can take the exact same compound and extrude it into different profiles. Hollow will still work differently though because it is hollow and so flattens.

In test the stretch was in order:
Hybrid Hollow
Hybrid solid (not far at all behind the hollow version)
Latex Hollow (not far behind the Hybrids)
Latex solid (way behind all)

In terms of power at any given length (so 2m-4m, 2m - 6m etc etc) it was in order:
Solid Latex (way more powerful)
Hollow Latex, Hybrid solid & Hollow (as there wasn't much difference and it was slightly variable)
But to get the same power at any given length it seems you need to use a slightly bigger diameter, heavier (in actual weight) Hybrid as the compound itself is softer.

It varies slightly size to size. It will vary make to make.

Nothing is set in stone so you need to use an elastic or elastics and find what suits you for whatever you are doing.

It's not massively complicated.
 

Mork

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So here's a video using 90mm pieces of the 2 elastics joined together, so the both have exactly the same tensile load applied.
I know it's rubbish - I've never done it before! It's not to give an exact result like the data table & chart I provided on a previous post.
Its' simply a more tangible and visual indication of how both elastics behave.
I stretched them until I felt the were 'locking-up'
The hollow piece was damaged at the end of the test and actually measured 92mm, indicating that It had been taken up to its limit.
The tiles are 335mm square and the elastics stretched around 1.75 tiles.
The stretch factor is therefore circa 1.75 x 335 / 90mm = 6.5 approximately. The hollow is claimed to have a stretch factor of 8!
Note the hysteresis I previously described when the elastics retract and the hollow becomes three times as long as the solid (circa 28s)

My data is fact (not brand marketing, subjective opinion, perception etc). I have not seen any other independent proof that contradicts my tests.

If hollows are 'normally' more stretchy, I can only assume that I have some special solid elastic that has a bigger stretch factor than normal and/or a hollow that has a lower factor than normal.

The video
 
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