What's going wrong here?

Maverick

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Found this video really interesting. Why are the carp able to suck in this pop up and spit it out without hooking themselves? Why do the fish seem wary of it and back off?

To all intense and purposes it appears to be a perfectly well presented bait.

 

Lee Richards

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Critically balanced baits offer less resistance and as the hook is free to move without being in contact with the detritus on the bottom in theory a better hook hold should be achieved.

As for why is the fish spitting it out,fish can still feel if something is not quite right and will soon eject if not happy.
I have watched Teme Chub mouth meat on a hair and just hold it for a while before rejection.
There was no indication on the anglers quiver and it will happen with all baits including maggots,worms etc
Try fishing for Zander with small deads as they are notorious for mouthing without any really indication.
 

Sportsman

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Looking at the video I can see no advantage in using a pop up. That bait was not critically balanced, it was bobbing around like a cork and looked completely unnatural.
A couple of grains of maize on a hair and fished on the deck would have been more successful I'm sure.
I think a lot of people fish pop up just for the sake of it.
 

ukzero1

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If you noticed in the video, the Carp were touching the mainline, probably why they were wary. Also, looking at the date (still a little nippy), the fish were onto the smaller stuff (Notice they take the corn?). I wouldn't have gone with a size 6 hook with a 14mm boilie either.
 

TonyA

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All those valid comments aside, why weren't those carp, that sucked the bait in, hooked? After all, thats how a hair rig works.
 

ukzero1

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All those valid comments aside, why weren't those carp, that sucked the bait in, hooked? After all, thats how a hair rig works.

The only reason I can think of is that the end rig was too stiff and didn't allow for the hook to twist round to allow the hook-up.
 

Lee Richards

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Hook has not touched any part of the mouth to prick it,alarm the fish to shoot off and then bring the main weight and "bolt-rig" into effect.
There are numerous reasons why hooks do not always prick the fishes mouth with bait/hook size ratio being the most common one.

It is literally a case of "it didn't touch the sides" :)
 

banksy

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That's a big, heavy chunky hook for the size of the boilie?
Thought I'm no carp angler!
 

Lee Richards

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For the size of bait 14mm a six would be the normal choice Dave and you have to also consider the size of fish in the water.
 

TonyA

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Having looked again, it appears that the big bait is not getting drawn in very far and appears to obstruct the hook.
 

ukzero1

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For the size of bait 14mm a six would be the normal choice Dave and you have to also consider the size of fish in the water.

I do O.K. using a size 10 on 14mm, but then, that's the biggest allowed on our waters, and many others come to think of it.
 

Lee Richards

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If you read any of the articles by the more successful carp anglers such as Terry Hearn comparative to bait size they will always try to get away with the largest hook they can.
Hearn uses a range of 5's & 6s for most of his boilie fishing for Carp & Barbel.
 

Freesolo82

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Could be a blunt hook though i doubt that's is the cause as the carp are not feeling the hook point, It could be a number of things related to the presentation like wrong hook, too long hair, too short hair, too large bait, too small bait etc etc. These are big old wary fish that have seen it all before
They seem to come in and scope the area out before feeding, I don't fish for Carp often but its interesting behavior to watch nonetheless
 

missabite

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I have watched Teme Chub mouth meat on a hair and just hold it for a while before rejection.

I stood on the bridge at Borrowash watching my mate fishing a waggler. He fed maggots and the Chub were ravenous for them. What I couldn't believe was how many Chub took his hook bait and spat it out without registering even a murmur on the float.
 

ukzero1

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If you read any of the articles by the more successful carp anglers such as Terry Hearn comparative to bait size they will always try to get away with the largest hook they can.
Hearn uses a range of 5's & 6s for most of his boilie fishing for Carp & Barbel.

All very well if you're allowed to use hooks that size.
 

Lee Richards

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"All very well if you're allowed to use hooks that size "
Well of course that's relevant but it's the logic behind it that is worth noting.

Hearn made an observation on one of the waters he was fishing that some of the anglers were fishing well know "waters" baits but they did not have the same hooking up success that he had.
When they did comparisons they were all using the same size baits but he was the only one who was using a very wide gape hook ,he reasoned that this was the major difference that contributed to his success - the bait was masking the hook as it went in to the fishes mouth and was rejected without registering.
 

Ken the Pacman

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It is a pretty crude presentation and putting a BB shot where it is has caused the fish to feel the weight and be able to eject the bait were if they felt the lead there is a greater chance of getting a hook hold. It looks very unnatural anyway with the pop up bobbing around unlike the feed around it.
If it had been a "chod" type set up with a very short hooklength it would be more effective with a pop up as the fish would hit the weight straight away and with the correct presentation be hooked more often.
What you see in the film is a beginners set up who has not grasped the theory of self hooking rigs and the reasons there are curves in chod rigs or curves in hooks like chod hooks or spinner rigs which would all be more effective assuming the hookbait has any attraction or change it for a bottom bait.
 

Lee Richards

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Have to disagree with you there Ken as you will see numerous top carp anglers using the same rig set-up but in most instances will replace the shot with tungsten rig putty - they do this as it allows them to tinker with the weight size so as to achieve neutral buoyancy of hook & bait. ( and change distance of bait off the bottom)
The rig set-ups though are exactly the same and the idea that the bait is moving around is to mimic the static bait that has now been dislodged from the bottom and will rise and fall around it.

Chod rigs were designed to be used for specific types of bottoms and although they have proved to be versatile elsewhere they are still not the first "go to" rig by anglers such as Rob Hughes.
Hughes wrote an article a few years ago on how he caught previously unknown fish on a Colne water using chods but when others caught on within a short period of time the use of this rig actually put the fish off. Anglers started catching again when they returned back to standard pop-ups.
Strange things fish.
 
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Ken the Pacman

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It is an old style rig that is a throwback to the 1980s :LOL:
Rig technology has moved on since then and all the more advanced Carp Anglers I know have embraced the newer leader materials and hook patterns to good effect converting the single bleeps that the basic rig produces into hooked fish.
 
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