Wales Triple Crown
- Thread starter Keith Sparky
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Have to give credit to Wales though as it's impressive such a small minor nation was able to punch above its weight.
It's down to their Rorkes Drift mentality, " what's that you say, they were mostly English "
It's down to their Rorkes Drift mentality, " what's that you say, they were mostly English "
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I think the debate about yesterday's one poor refereeing decision masks a deeper problem that should be the discussion point about England rugby.
Only the most ardent Welsh supporter would say that what the referee did for the first try was fair. As for the second, by the letter of the law it was no knock on. The ball was dropped and from last contact with the player's body went backwards. Taken the other way, if a defender touches a pass making the ball go forward, catches the ball and runs to score a try that try would stand.
No the bigger debate is surely about England's style and discipline.
Discipline first. England habitually give away loads of penalties. No ifs, no buts, the statistics are there in black and white. Cut that out and you immediately stop giving away territory, advantage and points.
Style? There is a distinct difference between Southern Hemisphere rugby and that played by England. England still insist on the "keep it with the forwards and bash it up the middle" style. Plainly this is not a winning tactic. England have some great backs with speed and agility yet for far too long in matches they are relegated to the role of spectators or defenders. Earlier someone mentioned risk and reward. England need to take more risks in getting the ball wide quickly to fast wingers and fullback who can penetrate defenses at their weakest point. The rewards would follow.
It surprises me that with a coach from below the equator we still play a ponderous, stogy and thus penalty laden style.
Then there is the kicking game. In the first match of this series against Scotland England kicked, kicked and kicked again. This always resulted in the loss of territory with the ball ending up at least twenty metres behind the point from which it was initially kicked. In eighty minutes no one recognised this fact either on the pitch or on the sidelines. The backs must have been frustrated that when the ball was eventually released from the forwards it never reached them.
It was eighteen years ago that I sat enthralled by England as they played New Zealand and Australia at the start of that World Cup year. They employed a style and approach that matched and outplayed the two dominant teams in world rugby. Little surprise to me that we won the World Cup that year. But in eighteen years we seem to have regressed.
Is it any wonder that I prefer to watch England Ladies who have, and use, some exciting talent in the back division.
Only the most ardent Welsh supporter would say that what the referee did for the first try was fair. As for the second, by the letter of the law it was no knock on. The ball was dropped and from last contact with the player's body went backwards. Taken the other way, if a defender touches a pass making the ball go forward, catches the ball and runs to score a try that try would stand.
No the bigger debate is surely about England's style and discipline.
Discipline first. England habitually give away loads of penalties. No ifs, no buts, the statistics are there in black and white. Cut that out and you immediately stop giving away territory, advantage and points.
Style? There is a distinct difference between Southern Hemisphere rugby and that played by England. England still insist on the "keep it with the forwards and bash it up the middle" style. Plainly this is not a winning tactic. England have some great backs with speed and agility yet for far too long in matches they are relegated to the role of spectators or defenders. Earlier someone mentioned risk and reward. England need to take more risks in getting the ball wide quickly to fast wingers and fullback who can penetrate defenses at their weakest point. The rewards would follow.
It surprises me that with a coach from below the equator we still play a ponderous, stogy and thus penalty laden style.
Then there is the kicking game. In the first match of this series against Scotland England kicked, kicked and kicked again. This always resulted in the loss of territory with the ball ending up at least twenty metres behind the point from which it was initially kicked. In eighty minutes no one recognised this fact either on the pitch or on the sidelines. The backs must have been frustrated that when the ball was eventually released from the forwards it never reached them.
It was eighteen years ago that I sat enthralled by England as they played New Zealand and Australia at the start of that World Cup year. They employed a style and approach that matched and outplayed the two dominant teams in world rugby. Little surprise to me that we won the World Cup that year. But in eighteen years we seem to have regressed.
Is it any wonder that I prefer to watch England Ladies who have, and use, some exciting talent in the back division.
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"Discipline first. England habitually give away loads of penalties. No ifs, no buts, the statistics are there in black and white. Cut that out and you immediately stop giving away territory, advantage and points."
Except for:
The official had a clear bias during this match and did this cause decisions to be made that another would have not?
As MJ said-once it's in an officials mind you infringe others always look for it,even if it's not there.
See it in football all of the time.
I watch a lot of Southern Hemisphere rugby and England would have not been penalised as much with a SH official.
Sorry Neil but you are wrong with your "bash it" analogy as that is exactly how SA and Oz have played the past few years.
You see many games are played this way in the Super Rugby,Currie Cup and Mitre 10 tournaments and it was the way SA beat England at the last WC.
If you don't play "like for like" you are steamrollered.
As for England ladies "apples and pears" and the standard globally is less than average and it's a three team world tournament.
Except for:
The official had a clear bias during this match and did this cause decisions to be made that another would have not?
As MJ said-once it's in an officials mind you infringe others always look for it,even if it's not there.
See it in football all of the time.
I watch a lot of Southern Hemisphere rugby and England would have not been penalised as much with a SH official.
Sorry Neil but you are wrong with your "bash it" analogy as that is exactly how SA and Oz have played the past few years.
You see many games are played this way in the Super Rugby,Currie Cup and Mitre 10 tournaments and it was the way SA beat England at the last WC.
If you don't play "like for like" you are steamrollered.
As for England ladies "apples and pears" and the standard globally is less than average and it's a three team world tournament.
First of all Wales deserved to win that game, not because they played great rugby but because they were solid and disciplined and took their chances when they came.
England’s poor discipline cost them again, plus poor selection. This is basically the same team that peaked in the semi final of the World Cup and have been going downhill since then - whilst a team like Scotland who were woeful in the World Cup now look genuinely better than England with only a fraction of their resources.
as for that referee, I’ve been playing and watching rugby for 50 years and I’ve seen some terrible refereeing but that first Welsh try was the first time I’ve ever seen a referee actually create a try for a team. He should never referee at this level again.
England’s poor discipline cost them again, plus poor selection. This is basically the same team that peaked in the semi final of the World Cup and have been going downhill since then - whilst a team like Scotland who were woeful in the World Cup now look genuinely better than England with only a fraction of their resources.
as for that referee, I’ve been playing and watching rugby for 50 years and I’ve seen some terrible refereeing but that first Welsh try was the first time I’ve ever seen a referee actually create a try for a team. He should never referee at this level again.
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I'm no rugby buff. I just enjoy watching international games on TV. I think my allegiance is pretty fairly split when Wales & England are playing. I'm English so I patriotically root for England. But I prefer Wales's style of play so I root for them too.
In the game yesterday I was somewhat puzzled at some of the decisions. I found myself saying "Oh not again!" when yet another penalty was awarded. Overall as a spectator I did not enjoy the stop-start patchy nature of the game. It never really flowed at all. Whether that was because players repeatedly infringed the rules, or the referee was overly strict in applying them is debatable. But as a spectacle it was unimpressive.
In the game yesterday I was somewhat puzzled at some of the decisions. I found myself saying "Oh not again!" when yet another penalty was awarded. Overall as a spectator I did not enjoy the stop-start patchy nature of the game. It never really flowed at all. Whether that was because players repeatedly infringed the rules, or the referee was overly strict in applying them is debatable. But as a spectacle it was unimpressive.
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I love my 6 Nations trip away. I can remember a few years back travelling to Edinburgh with a bunch of Welsh mates to watch Wales v England in the Milne pub on Rose street. Scotland were playing Ireland and the French playing the Italians. Edinburgh was full of all 6 nations supporters and an idiot in a Malta RUFC shirt. I taught a bunch of French lads some quite unsavoury anti English sayings and heard some very derogatory anti Welsh stuff from a bunch of Italian lads that the English boys had taught them. The Irish just got drunk and sang and the Scots got drunker and sang louder. At one point a bunch of Dutch lads joined in and a few choruses of "Oh Michael Van Gerwen" was aimed in my direction, still dont know why though
Great weekend and not a single bit of trouble. Win or lose you got to love the 6 Nations.
Great weekend and not a single bit of trouble. Win or lose you got to love the 6 Nations.
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If it was a football match it would have been investigated for betting irregularities..!
Personally I think those 2 controversial tries changed the whole dynamic of the game as I said earlier if with 20 minutes remaining the score had been 24-10 to England then there game plan would have been completely different..
It must be the worst refereeing performance I have seen in so called professional sport for many years, Farrell had every right to question him but his arrogance when Farrell did question him certainly did not help the way the game was played. Yes England have some discipline issues but some of the penalties were at best dubious, even my Welsh partner who can not see anything but a Welsh point of view said he was poor.... and believe me getting a dyed in the wool welsh supporting Valley girl to admit that means he was probably dreadful
Personally I think those 2 controversial tries changed the whole dynamic of the game as I said earlier if with 20 minutes remaining the score had been 24-10 to England then there game plan would have been completely different..
It must be the worst refereeing performance I have seen in so called professional sport for many years, Farrell had every right to question him but his arrogance when Farrell did question him certainly did not help the way the game was played. Yes England have some discipline issues but some of the penalties were at best dubious, even my Welsh partner who can not see anything but a Welsh point of view said he was poor.... and believe me getting a dyed in the wool welsh supporting Valley girl to admit that means he was probably dreadful
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Guess who isn’t going to be particularly unbiased in this one ??
First try - Dan Biggar has form for taking quick penalties, he saw an opportunity checked with the ref and exploited it.
I would be raging as an England fan too but Farrell needed to be more situationally aware (you snooze you lose). Yes the ref was a bit quick and maybe his instructions weren’t as clear as they could be but its international rugby and you’ve got to be sharper than England were in situations like that.
Second try - rulebook says if it hits the body and goes backwards it’s not a knock on, can’t argue with the rulebook.
England lost that game because of kicking away possession and a massive lack of discipline and haemorrhaging penalties - just as they have in every game this series
They should be grateful that Maro Itoje didn’t get to spend time in the bin for the number of times he repeatedly offended.
Don't get me wrong - I think Itoje is a stunning player and if he had any Welsh in him I’d sign him up in a heartbeat but when you can see the ref is being whistle happy as this one was then Farrell should have had the presence of mind to take him aside for a second and tell him to ease back a little.
Anyways I have just recorded the after match interviews to watch Owen & Eddie over and over and over again
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Why should Farrell have been more aware?
He did exactly as instructed and spoke to his players, there were water carriers on the pitch that were in a position they could have influenced the play and there was no prior warning from the official that time was soon to be added on.
Wales took their opportunities and the record books will show the result.
Would rather be in England's camp for the WC as don't see much in Wales that will worry those in with a chance when it matters.
He did exactly as instructed and spoke to his players, there were water carriers on the pitch that were in a position they could have influenced the play and there was no prior warning from the official that time was soon to be added on.
Wales took their opportunities and the record books will show the result.
Would rather be in England's camp for the WC as don't see much in Wales that will worry those in with a chance when it matters.
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The presence of water carriers or medical staff on the field of play do not constitute a reason to suspend the clock or prevent the passage of play - its in the rule book.
England have far more issues that require addressing than coming up against a bit of questionable reffing - Wales might not be at the top of their game but they demonstrate a level of composure, determination, desire and experience that far outweighs that of many opponents & on that can they build.
England have far more issues that require addressing than coming up against a bit of questionable reffing - Wales might not be at the top of their game but they demonstrate a level of composure, determination, desire and experience that far outweighs that of many opponents & on that can they build.
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Of course they have an impact and play will always stop if there are non-playing personal who are on the pitch who could affect the passage of play.
E.g medical staff,injured players,ball boys,players warming up,coaching staff to name a few.
E.g medical staff,injured players,ball boys,players warming up,coaching staff to name a few.
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- A maximum of three non-playing personnel are allowed to enter the field of play for the purposes of water carrying (which is only permitted when play is stopped for an injury or when a try has been scored). The Manager and Coach are not permitted to act as water carriers at any time. The water carriers must wear the Technical Zone bibs provided by the tournament organiser at all times.
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That’s not correct Lee - frequently play continues on and around medical staff whilst they attend players on the floor carrying out triage (determining the extent of any injuries) and nowhere in the RFU handbook does it state that a referee must ensure all non-playing staff have left the field of play prior to restarting the clock. The ref will stop play when the medics advise them either directly or via touch line officials that further intervention is required or if they see current play will endanger the medics/player.
The RFU instructions relating to water carriers are that they should leave the field of play by the most direct route as soon as possible.
Water carriers are in themselves currently contentious since many are deemed to provide “coaching”, indeed they may be current or ex coaching staff in the clubs employment, and as such spend as much time disseminating coaching instruction as they are handing out water.
The only people allowed on the field of play must remain in the TMZ, ball boys and players warming up don’t enter the field of play at all.
The RFU instructions relating to water carriers are that they should leave the field of play by the most direct route as soon as possible.
Water carriers are in themselves currently contentious since many are deemed to provide “coaching”, indeed they may be current or ex coaching staff in the clubs employment, and as such spend as much time disseminating coaching instruction as they are handing out water.
The only people allowed on the field of play must remain in the TMZ, ball boys and players warming up don’t enter the field of play at all.
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Best you let these guys know then
officiating.worldrugby.org
World Rugby Officiating : The home of Rugby officiating on the web
The home of Rugby officiating on the web. Online learning, officials panels, appointments and more.
officiating.worldrugby.org
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A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
Hitting his body doesn't matter, he has to catch it.
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Best you let these guys know then
World Rugby Officiating : The home of Rugby officiating on the web
The home of Rugby officiating on the web. Online learning, officials panels, appointments and more.
Water carriers only allowed to enter when play is stopped, nothing about restarting play if they are still there
But anyhow ........ we won and I don’t care how legal it was
First of all there should no criticism of Dan Biggar, he asked the ref if he could go and got the nod. Good alert play by him.
Guess who isn’t going to be particularly unbiased in this one ??
First try - Dan Biggar has form for taking quick penalties, he saw an opportunity checked with the ref and exploited it.
I would be raging as an England fan too but Farrell needed to be more situationally aware (you snooze you lose). Yes the ref was a bit quick and maybe his instructions weren’t as clear as they could be but its international rugby and you’ve got to be sharper than England were in situations like that.
Second try - rulebook says if it hits the body and goes backwards it’s not a knock on, can’t argue with the rulebook.
England lost that game because of kicking away possession and a massive lack of discipline and haemorrhaging penalties - just as they have in every game this series
They should be grateful that Maro Itoje didn’t get to spend time in the bin for the number of times he repeatedly offended.
Don't get me wrong - I think Itoje is a stunning player and if he had any Welsh in him I’d sign him up in a heartbeat but when you can see the ref is being whistle happy as this one was then Farrell should have had the presence of mind to take him aside for a second and tell him to ease back a little.
Anyways I have just recorded the after match interviews to watch Owen & Eddie over and over and over again
As for Farrell not being alert though I’m sorry but that’s complete nonsense. The ref told him to talk to his players and said there was a time out. He then watched the England huddle and as soon as the first player pulled away from it he told Biggar he could go. He gifted Wales that try. My Welsh rugby mates have been having a laugh about it but they all agree it was wrong. The drinks carriers by the way is a red herring - not relevant.
I thought Rees-Zammet knocked on for the second try because I thought the ball went forward off his hand before then hitting his leg and going backwards, but he was motoring and I can see why the ref gave the on field try. In fairness he did ask the TMO to check it and was told it was ok so he’s not going to reverse his own decision.
That first try though is imo unacceptable at this level and the ref needs to go back to U7’s touch rugby - if they’ll have him.
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Old Taff - you are like the French official, making the rules up as you go along
England beat themselves again yesterday and better to do that now than when we are challenging for the WC.
Disappointed the Sweaties are not playing today as I love the way they play to their strengths and with some flair as well.
TBH it's good to see all the second rate teams put up a good show but when it matters you are all just making the numbers up.
Bit like the football really
England beat themselves again yesterday and better to do that now than when we are challenging for the WC.
Disappointed the Sweaties are not playing today as I love the way they play to their strengths and with some flair as well.
TBH it's good to see all the second rate teams put up a good show but when it matters you are all just making the numbers up.
Bit like the football really
