Stick float rod Daiwa Matchwinner 13' Stick

trotter2

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Honestly to compare some of these older rods from the late 70s early 80s with modern rods its like comparing fibreglass with something like a Bruce and Walker xlt not in the same league at the time.I can understand the nostalgia with it all, but thats about it.
 

nejohn

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The century excalibur weight 6 oz I had one back in the early 80s it was advertised as the lightest match rod in the world at that time
But it was sold either a blank of a part built which meant it had the handle fitted ,no rings on.
The advertised weight was blank weight not finished rod. Nejohn I don't know we're you get your readings from but I would suggest a new set of kitchen scales.
And it came in two versions the first version was a hollow tip waggler rod later the spliced tip came on the market which is a rare rod.
The spliced tip would have been slightly heavier.
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I built the rod earlier this year from a blank I bought in the 90's from the factory at Washington, the blank weighed just short of 100grms, fully built as you can see it weighed 165 grams on the same scales I have just weighed a 200 gram bar of chocolate on and it weighed 199 grams so not much wrong with the scales
 

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nejohn

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Also weighed a Rive 13ft r waggler on the same scales at 120, grams which is exactly what Rive claim.... So yes I do know what a light float rod feels like. As for the 90's rods not being in the same league as modern rods I beg to differ on that one, there were some very god rods around then and are definitely comparable with most modern rods, it is not a case of rose tinted glasses, something like any of the Normark 2000 series can definitely hold their own with modern rods as can the top end Daiwa spliced tip rods for stick float fishing to name a few
 
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trotter2

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Also weighed a Rive 13ft r waggler on the same scales at 120, grams which is exactly what Rive claim.... So yes I do know what a light float rod feels like. As for the 90's rods not being in the same league as modern rods I beg to differ on that one, there were some very god rods around then and are definitely comparable with most modern rods, it is not a case of rose tinted glasses, something like any of the Normark 2000 series can definitely hold their own with modern rods as can the top end Daiwa spliced tip rods for stick float fishing to name a few
Your blank is different than mine ,The one I have had a silver sticker "Century Excalibur" purchased from Adams darlo. You know the shop. Read my comments again I said late 70s 80s rods not 90s. ??
 

nejohn

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The picture of the excaliber was taken several months ago when I built the rod, I just put a bar of chocolate on as I was in the kitchen when replying to your post , I have no reason to doubt Chris's weight of the allerton I was just guessing when I said a tad over 140 grams. I weighed the rive when I got it a couple of months ago to confirm Rive's claims of a 120 grm float rod and I can confirm Rive are not telling lies
So no I have not got the scales out to weigh rods and have no intention of going down to the bottom of the garden in the pouring rain, dig out a particular rod which I am not sure were exactly it is just to confirm a weight that Chris has already stated
 

nejohn

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Your blank is different than mine ,The one I have had a silver sticker "Century Excalibur" purchased from Adams darlo. You know the shop. Read my comments again I said late 70s 80s rods not 90s. ??
I bought the excaliber direct from the factory in probably about 1993ish I bought a hollow tip and a spliced tip, I built the hollow tip but before I got round to building the spliced tip I bought the then brand new Daiwa Tom Pickering Conniesuer so the blank got put away. I only found it while clearing some rod tubes out in early lockdown. When I bought it these were a new model excaliber which was vastly improved over the originals much lighter and slimmer blank (just over 11mm at the butt) hence the lighter weight than the originals
 

Sam Vimes

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John, the next time you do get really bored, and it's not chucking it down, I'd love to see some weights for the Daiwa rods that you own. My own experience of Daiwa (and Shimano) is that they don't really do particularly light rods. Look at the weight of the Air AGS (13' is 205g), a rod Daiwa touted in their write ups as being lightweight! Having had a play with the Tournament RS, I suspect that it is similarly weighty. Again, I'd be pleasantly surprised to see any 13' Daiwa match rod (inc spliced tip variants) that came in at less than 180g. Even leaving aside your remarkably light Rive, a 180-200+g is hardly lightweight compared to something of 30g (or more) less.
 

nejohn

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John, the next time you do get really bored, and it's not chucking it down, I'd love to see some weights for the Daiwa rods that you own. My own experience of Daiwa (and Shimano) is that they don't really do particularly light rods. Look at the weight of the Air AGS (13' is 205g), a rod Daiwa touted in their write ups as being lightweight! Having had a play with the Tournament RS, I suspect that it is similarly weighty. Again, I'd be pleasantly surprised to see any 13' Daiwa match rod (inc spliced tip variants) that came in at less than 180g. Even leaving aside your remarkably light Rive, a 180-200+g is hardly lightweight compared to something of 30g (or more) less.
Chris, next time I am having a bit of a tidy out I will dig out a 13ft Daiwa conny spliced tip, spectron M2's in both spliced and hollow tip and an RS, my guess is the RS is going to come in at around 160-170, the spectrons about the same and the conny slightly heavier. I will also do a couple of other off the wall 13ft rods just to add interest
 

trotter2

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I bought the excaliber direct from the factory in probably about 1993ish I bought a hollow tip and a spliced tip, I built the hollow tip but before I got round to building the spliced tip I bought the then brand new Daiwa Tom Pickering Conniesuer so the blank got put away. I only found it while clearing some rod tubes out in early lockdown. When I bought it these were a new model excaliber which was vastly improved over the originals much lighter and slimmer blank (just over 11mm at the butt) hence the lighter weight than the originals
That would explain the difference in Excalibur weights mine was probably purchased about 80, 81. I even remember the adverts in the angling times."The world's lightest match rod"
 

Silverfisher

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Being a bit of a float fishing nerd I do enjoy these weight discussions!

I've only ever weighed my two current float rods off the back of these threads and there definitely can be a bit of variance on what the manufacturers state. Although tbf I should think there's a fair bit of natural variation in the weight of materials in any rod. That said drennan have the 13ft ultra at something like 135g but when I weighed mine it was more around 140g or 141g if I recall so a reasonable amount off the stated weight. By comparison cadence give the 13ft CR10 #1 at 162g and when I weighed mine I do recall it being pretty close at something like 164g or 166g. One things for sure whether the difference between the two rods is closer to 20g or 30g that difference is certainly very noticeable in the hand.

On the subject of daiwas and shimanos the daiwas do seem to feel heavy for their price points. That said shimanos latest offering the aero 5 doesn't feel particularly heavy and is apparently 162g which, whilst it would be a bit heavy for say a pushing £200 rod, does seem perfectly acceptable for a sub £150 rod to me.

Anyway back to the OP I suppose what level of power you need in the rod partially comes down to how far you want to run the gauntlet with the inevitable trout intrusions. Something like an acolyte ultra should be perfect for grayling. Not that I've used mine for that as where I fish grayling you can't swing a cat let alone a 13ft rod! But it's probably not so much at home with regular scraps with 4-5lb trout than I understand are regular oocurances on some parts of the test and Itchen you mention. If that scenario is likely then if going down the new rod route something with a slight touch more power like a maver signature pro (at a fairly reasonable 155g ?) might be a better option.
 

Sam Vimes

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Chris, next time I am having a bit of a tidy out I will dig out a 13ft Daiwa conny spliced tip, spectron M2's in both spliced and hollow tip and an RS, my guess is the RS is going to come in at around 160-170, the spectrons about the same and the conny slightly heavier. I will also do a couple of other off the wall 13ft rods just to add interest

I'll be interested to see your results.

Going off Daiwa catalogue listings:
The Spectron M2s (SM213S and SM213W) are 6.2oz (175g).
The newer Spectron (SPM13WAU) is 7oz (198g).
The Tournament RS (TRNS13F) is 6.6oz (187g).

The lightest 13' Daiwa match rod I can find a catalogue weight for is the Team Daiwa SR3 at 5.3oz (150g). The vast bulk of Daiwa 13' offerings are around the 6.5-7oz (184-198g) mark. The Spectron M2s do appear to be amongst the lightest of the UK made Daiwa match rods.
 

trotter2

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Being a bit of a float fishing nerd I do enjoy these weight discussions!

I've only ever weighed my two current float rods off the back of these threads and there definitely can be a bit of variance on what the manufacturers state. Although tbf I should think there's a fair bit of natural variation in the weight of materials in any rod. That said drennan have the 13ft ultra at something like 135g but when I weighed mine it was more around 140g or 141g if I recall so a reasonable amount off the stated weight. By comparison cadence give the 13ft CR10 #1 at 162g and when I weighed mine I do recall it being pretty close at something like 164g or 166g. One things for sure whether the difference between the two rods is closer to 20g or 30g that difference is certainly very noticeable in the hand.

On the subject of daiwas and shimanos the daiwas do seem to feel heavy for their price points. That said shimanos latest offering the aero 5 doesn't feel particularly heavy and is apparently 162g which, whilst it would be a bit heavy for say a pushing £200 rod, does seem perfectly acceptable for a sub £150 rod to me.

Anyway back to the OP I suppose what level of power you need in the rod partially comes down to how far you want to run the gauntlet with the inevitable trout intrusions. Something like an acolyte ultra should be perfect for grayling. Not that I've used mine for that as where I fish grayling you can't swing a cat let alone a 13ft rod! But it's probably not so much at home with regular scraps with 4-5lb trout than I understand are regular oocurances on some parts of the test and Itchen you mention. If that scenario is likely then if going down the new rod route something with a slight touch more power like a maver signature pro (at a fairly reasonable 155g ?) might be a better option.
Never tried the maver signature. Seen photos of it, looks a nice job with a good reel seat fitting. Read somewhere it's similar feel to the acolyte plus. Will have a look in me local ?
 

trotter2

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I'll be interested to see your results.

Going off Daiwa catalogue listings:
The Spectron M2s (SM213S and SM213W) are 6.2oz (175g).
The newer Spectron (SPM13WAU) is 7oz (198g).
The Tournament RS (TRNS13F) is 6.6oz (187g).

The lightest 13' Daiwa match rod I can find a catalogue weight for is the Team Daiwa SR3 at 5.3oz (150g). The vast bulk of Daiwa 13' offerings are around the 6.5-7oz (184-198g) mark. The Spectron M2s do appear to be amongst the lightest of the UK made Daiwa match rods.
Don't know about you Chris but anything approaching near 200g for a 13ft rod puts me right off, unless it's extremely well balanced?. What about you.
 

Sam Vimes

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Don't know about you Chris but anything approaching near 200g for a 13ft rod puts me right off, unless it's extremely well balanced?. What about you.

It's not the end of the world in a 13' rod, provided the rod has a good action that suits the individual. However, I believe there's a reason why Daiwa have often avoided making rods longer than 14'.

I still use the following without problems.
13' Daiwa Tom Pickering Matchwinner (TPM13S) ---------- 190g
13' Daiwa Tom Pickering Matchwinner-S (MW-S M130S) -- 200g
13' Daiwa Air AGS -------------------------------------------- 205g
13' Shimano Aerocast ---------------------------------------- 219g
The latter pair are reserved for stillwater stuff. The former two are both spliced tips, so only get used on rivers. I can certainly tell the difference after several hours of trotting. Despite the decidedly porcine nature of the Aerocasts, I won't part with them. The actions are excellent.

I keep the Matchwinners for nostalgia's sake but I invariably use Spheres for trotting. I keep Aerocasts because there's nothing quite like them. The Air AGS will probably be sold, if I ever get round to it. They aren't alone in that respect. I like buying much more than selling.
 
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Silverfisher

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Never tried the maver signature. Seen photos of it, looks a nice job with a good reel seat fitting. Read somewhere it's similar feel to the acolyte plus. Will have a look in me local ?
Never used one but had quite a few waggles of them when first toying with the idea of getting a slightly more powerful rod to compliment my acolyte ultra. Probably sits between an ultra and plus power wise from how it feels. Ended up getting the CR10 in the end which isn’t as good a rod but cadence were giving them away 2 for 1 so couldn’t really lose on that sort of deal!
 

Silverfisher

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Don't know about you Chris but anything approaching near 200g for a 13ft rod puts me right off, unless it's extremely well balanced?. What about you.
I used to have a 13ft Preston competition float that I think was pushing 190g. Had a pretty nice action and was fine when it could spend a fair bit of time on a rod rest but it was not nice to hold to trot with for too long.
 

Sam Vimes

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Never tried the maver signature. Seen photos of it, looks a nice job with a good reel seat fitting. Read somewhere it's similar feel to the acolyte plus. Will have a look in me local ?
They have had a 13'er gathering dust in our local for a while. At full price, people compare them directly to an Acolyte. The Acolyte leaves the shop and the Maver gathers more dust. Shame really, because they are decent rods, just not quite as light.
 

Silverfisher

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At full price, people compare them directly to an Acolyte. The Acolyte leaves the shop and the Maver gathers more dust.
It is a shame that people make that comparison because they do seem quite different rods to me in that acolyte is an out and out silvers rod and the maver a bit more versatile. From a quick waggle the maver does just feel like a slightly heavier acolyte it’s only really when you put a bend in them that you realise that the maver is not quite so forgiving and has a bit more power in the midsection. For targeting silvers where I fish where apart from occasional unwanted pike and carp I rarely hook fish of much more than a couple pounds the acolyte suits me perfectly but were you somewhere where, whist you’re still targeting silvers, you can expect more than the occasional bigger fish then I do think the maver would be the more suitable rod.
 

Sam Vimes

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It is a shame that people make that comparison because they do seem quite different rods to me in that acolyte is an out and out silvers rod and the maver a bit more versatile. From a quick waggle the maver does just feel like a slightly heavier acolyte it’s only really when you put a bend in them that you realise that the maver is not quite so forgiving and has a bit more power in the midsection. For targeting silvers where I fish where apart from occasional unwanted pike and carp I rarely hook fish of much more than a couple pounds the acolyte suits me perfectly but were you somewhere where, whist you’re still targeting silvers, you can expect more than the occasional bigger fish then I do think the maver would be the more suitable rod.
I beg to differ. I consider the action of the 15' Maver Signature to be closely comparable to the 15' Acolyte Plus. But then again, what do I know, I just own and use them both (along with the 15' Acolyte Ultra). I'd go so far as to say that I'd not be remotely surprised if Maver gave an Acolyte Plus to their manufacturers and said copy that, but make it a little tougher. If, as I suspect, you are comparing it to an Acolyte Ultra, you may have more of a point, but by just saying "Acolyte", you don't make it clear enough.

An Acolyte Ultra will undoubtedly be considered as a silvers rod by many. An Acolyte Plus is certainly a bit more than just a silvers rod, much like the Maver Signature. However, both Acolyte models are lighter than a Maver Signature at the corresponding length. It shouldn't be too much of a shock to anyone that a buyer presented with two similar rods, at similar prices, is likely to take the one that feels lighter in the shop. An awful lot of the success of the Acolytes can be attributed to them being impressively light at a relatively sensible price.
 
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