Spade-End Hooks and Line Diameter

Truly

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The hook was Kamasan B911 to Drennan Specialist 4lb line. Tied with my 1970s Easy-Ti.
Judging from the responses, the chief suspect would appear to be a poor knot ,rather than inappropriate hook/line combination.
I have three of that combination tied up, so will test them to destruction. I hope to establish whether it was a one-off failure or not.
Spent yesterday afternoon experimenting in my shed. One of the three came undone whilst the other two stayed firm to 4lbs 2ozs before the line broke.
The Drennan 4lb line has a diameter of 0.20, which seems thicker than ideal for a size 12. Clearly was my poor knot tying to blame on those that gave way though.

Playing around with hooks and lines clearly showed the importance of getting the balance between hook/spade size and line diameter.
Interestingly my three old spools of Shakespear Targa (3lb, 2.5lb and 2lb) have the same claimed diameters as the equivalent Reflo Power.

My intention is now to limit spade ends to size 14 and below, with size 12 and larger being eyed.
 

RMNDIL

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When you say came undone what exactly happened ? Did the tag end pull into the barrel of the knot (the coils) and pull through ? Or did the knot slip up onto the spade and pull over ? Or did the knot pull up partially onto the spade and then burst ??

If it's 1 then it's you not tying tight enough & possibly trimming the tag end far too close if it's 2 then either the line is way too thick for the width of spade (unlikely but possible) or, again, your knot is simply too loose and not gripping the shank of the hook. If it's 3 then your knot is, again, not tight enough.

It's a matter of getting the right tension in the knot (tight enough) without severely damaging the line.

It just takes practice. You managed to get 2/3 tied well anyway. Bit more practice methinks.
 

Neil ofthe nene

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When tying spades I don't just rely on the tyer getting the knot tight. Once tied I grasp the hooklength in between fingers and the tag end with a pair of needle nosed pliers. Pulling the two sides pulls the knot tight.

Then grasping the hook bend with the pliers and hooklength in fingers I pull the knot tight up to the spade ensuring at the same time the line comes from the front of the spade. I find this final pull tightens the knot by a quarter turn or so as you see the tag end turn as you tighten.
 

Anglingman

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matching correct line diameter to hook pattern and good tying skills are the 2 ingredients to success,

once tied test try the knot, I use a pair of long nose pliers to complete the final tightening.
I tie with 15 turns....

the guru Kaizen has a deliberate over size spade so using 0.20 ( 7lb ish) should not be a problem,

Its rare I go much above 0.19 and have very few that fail (pig tail)
 

Truly

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When you say came undone what exactly happened ? Did the tag end pull into the barrel of the knot (the coils) and pull through ? Or did the knot slip up onto the spade and pull over ? Or did the knot pull up partially onto the spade and then burst ??

If it's 1 then it's you not tying tight enough & possibly trimming the tag end far too close if it's 2 then either the line is way too thick for the width of spade (unlikely but possible) or, again, your knot is simply too loose and not gripping the shank of the hook. If it's 3 then your knot is, again, not tight enough.

It's a matter of getting the right tension in the knot (tight enough) without severely damaging the line.

It just takes practice. You managed to get 2/3 tied well anyway. Bit more practice methinks.
Not sure exactly what happened with the knot. I am in no doubt that the problem lies with my tying. These were hooks that I tied during the 2020 lockdown, when I decided to return to coarse angling. At that point in time, I hadn't tied a spade end hook for at least 25 years, so perhaps a faux pas or two is unsurprising.
 

rudd

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What is your experience with spade-end hooks and heavier line diameters?

After my recent faux pas with a size 12 spade end knot slipping, I have been wondering whether hook-lengths of 4lb or more can be securely tied to a spade end?
I am sure the carp anglers will know??

Perhaps it was simply a balls-up on my part, but curious to know member's experiences and advice.

I never get any trouble with size 14 to 18 spade end hooks/2 to 2.5lbs line coming undone.
They can be but it’s a pointless exercise in my eyes.
For waggler/pole:
Maggot, caster, punch,hemp, worm head - spade up to size 16, 4lb line.

Anything else - eyed.
 

Total

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Not sure exactly what happened with the knot. I am in no doubt that the problem lies with my tying. These were hooks that I tied during the 2020 lockdown, when I decided to return to coarse angling. At that point in time, I hadn't tied a spade end hook for at least 25 years, so perhaps a faux pas or two is unsurprising.
Can you put up a couple of examples/photos of the offending spade end hooks that you've tied so perhaps we can be more specific in our advice to you?....So many variables that are applicable we could chasing our rear ends with the wrong advice to you....(y)
 

Truly

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Can you put up a couple of examples/photos of the offending spade end hooks that you've tied so perhaps we can be more specific in our advice to you?....So many variables that are applicable we could chasing our rear ends with the wrong advice to you....(y)
Good idea @Total, but minor problem....... I bust the last three testing them :oops:. I'll have a look to see whether any similar combinations of my early tying efforts still survive.
Bought some Reflo Power 0.17mm this afternoon, together with more eyed hooks. Now have a supply of eyed hooks in 12, 10 and 8.
 

Truly

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When you say came undone what exactly happened ? Did the tag end pull into the barrel of the knot (the coils) and pull through ? Or did the knot slip up onto the spade and pull over ? Or did the knot pull up partially onto the spade and then burst ??
Thinking back to the original lost -fish incident that sparked this thread, I remember being left with a neat pigtail set of curls with a short straight piece on the end. The knot didn't burst, so clearly not tied tight enough. We live and learn.:)(y)
 

Sam Vimes

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I routinely use 0.19 and 0.20 hook links to spade end hooks. However, those spade end hooks are never smaller than a (big) 16. Usually, they'll be 12s, 13s and 14s. Once in a blue moon, I'll step up to .0.22 and 0.25mm with 10s and 12s. I used 0.19 to a 12 yesterday when (successfully) float fishing for tench.
 

PearTree

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I've posted the following knot before but it is particularly relevant on this thread :

Hook tying.JPG


Twelve turns is enough, but where it it is far better than the usual hand tied 'blood' type knot is that when you pull on both tag ends, then both ends of the knot itself are tightened down. That is particularly important with thicker lines so that the bit of the knot immediately behind the spade is as tight as you can get it . I'm not confident you can do this with the following 'normal' hand tied spade end knot :

 

Tinca Steve

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Having read all the posts I did not once see the mention of wetting the knot before tightening. It makes a massive difference to how tight you can get the knot with a bit of lubrication.
 
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