saddam's illegal missles

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chub

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Saddam is refusing to give up his missles so this means army.gif "war" <edit>

i love catching chub
 
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Beebs

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Like there was any doubt of that in the first place.

 

ray

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[:(] looks like my holiday to florida just gone up the swannie [:(]


ray.




prepare your meat at home and bin the tin.
"clean banks campaign"
 

Dave

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The one thing that does concern me in all this 'War Talk' is what the true agenda is. I don't really think that the majority of people including politicians have any idea as the steering of the whole affair is being done by a gung-ho with no real consistancy in his justifications.

Here is an article that was published that I agree with to some degree, it makes for interesting reading.

(This thread could be very emotive, so please respond to it in a civil manner and respect others opinions - as we usually do [:)])

quote:Opinion





January 15, 2003

The United States of America has gone mad
John le Carr


America has entered one of its periods of historical madness, but this is the worst I can remember: worse than McCarthyism, worse than the Bay of Pigs and in the long term potentially more disastrous than the Vietnam War.

The reaction to 9/11 is beyond anything Osama bin Laden could have hoped for in his nastiest dreams. As in McCarthy times, the freedoms that have made America the envy of the world are being systematically eroded. The combination of compliant US media and vested corporate interests is once more ensuring that a debate that should be ringing out in every town square is confined to the loftier columns of the East Coast press.

The imminent war was planned years before bin Laden struck, but it was he who made it possible. Without bin Laden, the Bush junta would still be trying to explain such tricky matters as how it came to be elected in the first place; Enron; its shameless favouring of the already-too-rich; its reckless disregard for the worlds poor, the ecology and a raft of unilaterally abrogated international treaties. They might also have to be telling us why they support Israel in its continuing disregard for UN resolutions.

But bin Laden conveniently swept all that under the carpet. The Bushies are riding high. Now 88 per cent of Americans want the war, we are told. The US defence budget has been raised by another $60 billion to around $360 billion. A splendid new generation of nuclear weapons is in the pipeline, so we can all breathe easy. Quite what war 88 per cent of Americans think they are supporting is a lot less clear. A war for how long, please? At what cost in American lives? At what cost to the American taxpayers pocket? At what cost because most of those 88 per cent are thoroughly decent and humane people in Iraqi lives?

How Bush and his junta succeeded in deflecting Americas anger from bin Laden to Saddam Hussein is one of the great public relations conjuring tricks of history. But they swung it. A recent poll tells us that one in two Americans now believe Saddam was responsible for the attack on the World Trade Centre. But the American public is not merely being misled. It is being browbeaten and kept in a state of ignorance and fear. The carefully orchestrated neurosis should carry Bush and his fellow conspirators nicely into the next election.

Those who are not with Mr Bush are against him. Worse, they are with the enemy. Which is odd, because Im dead against Bush, but I would love to see Saddams downfall just not on Bushs terms and not by his methods. And not under the banner of such outrageous hypocrisy.

The religious cant that will send American troops into battle is perhaps the most sickening aspect of this surreal war-to-be. Bush has an arm-lock on God. And God has very particular political opinions. God appointed America to save the world in any way that suits America. God appointed Israel to be the nexus of Americas Middle Eastern policy, and anyone who wants to mess with that idea is a) anti-Semitic, b) anti-American, c) with the enemy, and d) a terrorist.

God also has pretty scary connections. In America, where all men are equal in His sight, if not in one anothers, the Bush family numbers one President, one ex-President, one ex-head of the CIA, the Governor of Florida and the ex-Governor of Texas.

Care for a few pointers? George W. Bush, 1978-84: senior executive, Arbusto Energy/Bush Exploration, an oil company; 1986-90: senior executive of the Harken oil company.***** Cheney, 1995-2000: chief executive of the Halliburton oil company. Condoleezza Rice, 1991-2000: senior executive with the Chevron oil company, which named an oil tanker after her. And so on. But none of these trifling associations affects the integrity of Gods work.
In 1993, while ex-President George Bush was visiting the ever-democratic Kingdom of Kuwait to receive thanks for liberating them, somebody tried to kill him. The CIA believes that somebody was Saddam. Hence Bush Jrs cry: That man tried to kill my Daddy. But its still not personal, this war. Its still necessary. Its still Gods work. Its still about bringing freedom and democracy to oppressed Iraqi people.
To be a member of the team you must also believe in Absolute Good and Absolute Evil, and Bush, with a lot of help from his friends, family and God, is there to tell us which is which. What Bush wont tell us is the truth about why were going to war. What is at stake is not an Axis of Evil but oil, money and peoples lives. Saddams misfortune is to sit on the second biggest oilfield in the world. Bush wants it, and who helps him get it will receive a piece of the cake. And who doesnt, wont.

If Saddam didnt have the oil, he could torture his citizens to his hearts content. Other leaders do it every day think Saudi Arabia, think Pakistan, think Turkey, think Syria, think Egypt.

Baghdad represents no clear and present danger to its neighbours, and none to the US or Britain. Saddams weapons of mass destruction, if hes still got them, will be peanuts by comparison with the stuff Israel or America could hurl at him at five minutes notice. What is at stake is not an imminent military or terrorist threat, but the economic imperative of US growth. What is at stake is Americas need to demonstrate its military power to all of us to Europe and Russia and China, and poor mad little North Korea, as well as the Middle East; to show who rules America at home, and who is to be ruled by America abroad.

The most charitable interpretation of Tony Blairs part in all this is that he believed that, by riding the tiger, he could steer it. He cant. Instead, he gave it a phoney legitimacy, and a smooth voice. Now I fear, the same tiger has him penned into a corner, and he cant get out.

It is utterly laughable that, at a time when Blair has talked himself against the ropes, neither of Britains opposition leaders can lay a glove on him. But thats Britains tragedy, as it is Americas: as our Governments spin, lie and lose their credibility, the electorate simply shrugs and looks the other way. Blairs best chance of personal survival must be that, at the eleventh hour, world protest and an improbably emboldened UN will force Bush to put his gun back in his holster unfired. But what happens when the worlds greatest cowboy rides back into town without a tyrants head to wave at the boys?
Blairs worst chance is that, with or without the UN, he will drag us into a war that, if the will to negotiate energetically had ever been there, could have been avoided; a war that has been no more democratically debated in Britain than it has in America or at the UN. By doing so, Blair will have set back our relations with Europe and the Middle East for decades to come. He will have helped to provoke unforeseeable retaliation, great domestic unrest, and regional chaos in the Middle East. Welcome to the party of the ethical foreign policy.

There is a middle way, but its a tough one: Bush dives in without UN approval and Blair stays on the bank. Goodbye to the special relationship.
I cringe when I hear my Prime Minister lend his head prefects sophistries to this colonialist adventure. His very real anxieties about terror are shared by all sane men. What he cant explain is how he reconciles a global assault on al-Qaeda with a territorial assault on Iraq. We are in this war, if it takes place, to secure the fig leaf of our special relationship, to grab our share of the oil pot, and because, after all the public hand-holding in Washington and Camp David, Blair has to show up at the altar.
But will we win, Daddy?
Of course, child. It will all be over while youre still in bed.
Why?
Because otherwise Mr Bushs voters will get terribly impatient and may decide not to vote for him.
But will people be killed, Daddy?
Nobody you know, darling. Just foreign people.
Can I watch it on television?
Only if Mr Bush says you can.
And afterwards, will everything be normal again? Nobody will do anything horrid any more?
Hush child, and go to sleep.

Last Friday a friend of mine in California drove to his local supermarket with a sticker on his car saying: Peace is also Patriotic. It was gone by the time hed finished shopping.

The author has also contributed to an openDemocracy debate on Iraq at www.openDemocracy.net


hmmm,

Dave
 

martin.

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war is not a game .
ive lost some mates in ireland & some in the falklands.it wont be us & mericans going in to wipe the soldiers out & that be the end of it.
the concequenses i think will be a lot worse than we have seen for a long time.
1- the terrorists that ARE already in this country & most other countries could cause dedevastation here in our cities & townsas it must be simple to smuggle bombs & weapons into this country
just look how many fags ect are smuggled in every day.
2-it dosnt have to be explosive bomb or a gun to cause death & suffering with the amount of chemicals about.
3- once we have destoyed half of there country who will foot the bill for rebuilding it.
4- in the case of awar a lot the prices of everyday stuff here will go up for example petrol & fuel will which will push the price of everything else up. Then you will be looking at taxes going up to cover the cost of the forces going over then staying up to cover the aid for rebuilding what we have destroyed
well thats my opinion of what to expect anyway

tight lines.
martin.

talk fishing flip football
 

Lid

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The main reason many people in this country and America don't want this war is because our sovereignty is not threatened. Furthermore when the war commences, we will all become very easy targets for these fanatical terrorists.

There is no doubt is that Saddam is a very dangerous dictator and has carried out countless crimes against humanity. I am sure many of the Iraqi people would welcome his removal. However the anti war faction see it as SEP (someone else's problem).

Following on from that there are plenty of other regimes carrying out such crimes, eg. Sri Lanka, East Timor and North Korea, who incidentally have threatened a pre-emptive strike against the US.

Also there are loads of dodgy countries who have weapons of mass destruction. But what do we (and who are we anyway) do about these - nothing whatsoever. Most of this stuff doesn't even get in the news because the media just aren't interested in the world's real problems.

To be honest the human race is really pretty useless if it can't make use of this great planet's resources and all live together in harmony. As I've said before, maybe we'll get there in about a 1000 years time, assuming we are still here that is. And don't forget who gave these countries the weapons and the expertise to develop them in the first place. Why else do you think the US and UK are so adamant that Iraq has these weapons.

Lid [:)]
 
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Dave

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Good point Lid, in fact it was Bush's father who gave military aid, weapons and chem/biol weaponary to Sadam in the first place so that he could defeat iran in the Iran/iraq war

Added to that, the SAS trained members of Sadams guntra in the use of them

Dave
 

Beebs

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I have just started reading Michael Moore's 'Stupid White Men' and it is frightening at the way Bush got into power by using his contacts to manipulate who was eligible to vote in the first place.

It is really irritating to see brainless comments like >

Saddam is refusing to give up his missles so this means "war"

What, are you pleased about that? What's it got to do with us anyway? If you feel so strongly are you going to go and fight for America? I'm buggered if I would and if it is such and clear and cut case, then why do the majority of the rest of the world disagree with Britain and the States?

There is one frightening dictator with weapons of mass destruction that could destroy the world many times over and he's killing people all over the world, arming terrorists and supporting dubious regimes and his name is George W Bush. After all, who do you think supplied Iraq in the first place? Britain and the US supported Saddam Hussein during its war with Iran, do you remember that? What about Gadaffi in Lybia - not exactly a very nice person either, but not as politically important any more, probably due to the amount of oil in Lybia. Zimbabwe and Mugabe, the list goes on and on. And the amount of Algerian and North African terrorists that are emerging is even more cause for concern, but there's not as much oil there, so they don't matter as much. As long as you prosecute the odd one now and again to show you're doing something for this ridiculous 'War on Terror'. No sense changing their governments if you've nothing to gain from them.

They screwed up big style in Afghanistan with the 2 main men they were after getting away and now they want to save some face. A good quick victory in Iraq (which is never in question) will come just in time for Bush and Blair to carry themselves on the wave of positive public opinion just in time for elections. There's nothing like a good war to boost your popularity - just ask Maggie Thatcher and John Major. Both were unlikely to win their next terms in office, but the Falklands war and the last Gulf war gave them just the boost they needed.

Personally, I think Bush and his dad have sat over Thanksgiving dinner and George snr has said "You know, I'd like to have got Saddam Hussein back in 1991." and I can hear George Jnr saying "I'll tell you what Dad, I'll do it for you."

Try doing a bit of research into George W Bush and his connections and you'll find someone just as devious and sinister and don't try and kid yourself this is some kind of moral crusade. This is about oil and politics.

I won't go into the full details of the Florida vote debacle but I urge you to read Stupid White Men to see just how they managed to swing it Bush's way. In summary - he didn't get more votes than Gore, and used his family and contacts to stop people from voting were perfectly entitled to vote.

There's always more to it that what you see on the news and what you read in The Sun.

Didn't mean to repeat most of what was said above, obviously write slower than you guys!![:)][:)]

 
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Newt

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Aww - come on beebs. Tell us how you really feel. Don't sugar coat your opinions. :D

Newt Vail
 

Geoff P

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I think it is obvious that Saddam is due for a good sorting, but should America and Us be the ones to do it.

I just wonder where America gets the idea that it is the worlds police force. It condemns governments for actions in support of terrorism yet America is one of the IRAs main benefactors.

It supports Israel in its treatment of Palestinians. It has invaded two self governing countries, Grenada and Panama. Other countries support terrorism blatantly but they do not have Iraqs oil fields.

I am worried that a cretin like Bush has control of the worlds largest nuclear arsenal. Isn't he the chap who once said "95% of our imports come from abroad".

And I personally think Bambi is only supporting him to draw our attention away from the monumentous cock up he has made of his party's policies in this country. If he had to fight I bet he wouldn't be as eager to go.

Geoff

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Beebs

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quote:Originally posted by Newt

Aww - come on beebs. Tell us how you really feel. Don't sugar coat your opinions. :D

Newt Vail
[:D][:D][:D]

The worst thing is that I think the American people are great, I work with quite a few and they're excellent people. It's like us - the government are utterly clueless and we believe (in general) what we're told by the press, although I think our own cynicism is starting to kick back in. We've experienced so many politicians exposed for having double standards while telling us how to live our lives that we just don't believe them anymore. They have totally lost touch with the people who voted them in, hence the million odd people who walked through London in protest the other weekend. What bugs me is that they say - "Trust us, we know better than you do." Well we don't trust them, and the proof they need before carpet bombing another country has not been forthcoming. And since American troops haven't left the Gulf for 12 years and with all the spy sattelites up there looking down on us, if the proof was there, they could have slapped the photos on the table months ago. They haven't, so I assume they haven't got it.

I watched a debate the other night on Tv, it was called 'America on trial'. It was very interesting and one of the points brought up was how after September 11th, there was an amazing outpouring of sympathy for the US, which has now turned into distrust and disgust. What did Bush say - "You're either with us or against us." No mid ground then?

This is not meant in any way as a personal attack, Newt. I've read your posts here and on other forums and you seem to me to be well informed and a good thinker. I would like to know what you think as an American citizen, whether you think this war is just or just a potential vote winner? What do other Americans think about it?

I was away for 5 weeks before Christmas and the only English speaking news channel was CNN. For those 5 weeks I heard -

1 - America wants war in Iraq
2 - Iran is building a nuclear power station, but America doesn't want Iran to have nuclear power.
3 - North Korea is starting up a nuclear power station and America is totally against that one.

It seemed to be that the US is trying to dictate to all the countries all over the world who can have what. This wasn't some censored Communist propaganda, this was an American news station broadcasting American news.

America is still a new country in relative terms and shouldn't go around telling other countries that their way is wrong and America's is right.

I've got a mate emigrating to the US this weekend, so you make sure you all look after him!![:D][:p]

His name's James and he's moving to Texas, look him up if you're ever down that way. The place can't be that big, surely?!!?[:D][:D][:D]

 
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mike s

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This could have been finished with ease in '91 but it wasn't-BECAUSE OF OIL
It is now going to be fought for the wrong reason-BECAUSE OF OIL
The US is a massive importer of energy(& profligate in it's use)
The UK will become a NET IMPORTER of OIL by 2010
The US has done nothing to curb Israel's excesses, or force it to comply with MANY UN resolutions.
I support the removal of ALL despotic regimes-though not in order to further the wishes of one that is already too powerful.

Cumbria Angling Centre
 

Newt

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beebs - I didn't read your post as any sort of personal attack. Never seen any from you and would be very surprised if I ever did.

As to your friend who is relocating to Texas, tell him to take a look at http://www.carpanglersgroup.com and he can get information on the CAG (carp anglers group) contact person for Texas plus a good carping forum. CAG is the only organization I know of that has membership in the US and Canada (and would from Mexico but I don't even know if they have carp) and is centered on anything other that a traditional US sporting fish.

Ths list of events shown on the CAG page includes several fish-ins scheduled for Texas and he would be very welcome at any of them.

Re: the whole Iraq thing - I do support what Bush/Blair have planned. I also support the right of anyone, anywhere to completely disagree with me. But since I seriously doubt if any of us will change our minds based on the facts of the situation, I'll pass on discussing it in any detail. Feelings on all sides are running high enough that logic is taking a vacation.

Newt Vail
 

Trogg

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I'm hoping after we've got rid of maddas insane & the korean dictator whatsisname that the peple of the two countries involved will see sense & get rid of the other two idiots in charge...erm ohhh now let me thing a minute................oh yeah thats it B'liar & Bush.

Alan


There's a monster outside my window..can i have a glass of water?
 

Beebs

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Nice one Newt, always nice to see respect for each other's opinions and it not degenterating into nastiness and namecalling. But there again, I wouldn't have excpected any different from anyone on here.

 

carpbob3

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To be honest i have not read all the replies here but........

If Saddam does have these weapons of mass distruction (and no doubt he has) then to go to war with him iss a sure fire way of him justiying him to use them and to his people to think what a great man he is. I believe that not all his followers think as him as great but go along with his ideas because they are terrifed of him and who can blame them for that. Unfortunatly War is not always the best way of dealing with men like him and the likes of Bin Laden..... even if the US the British or any other country did manage to capture either of these men there will always be another man to step into the shoes of those who have passed......... i Believe that the only way to deal with Countries like this is to cut them off from the rest of the World..... With very harsh penalties to those who do deal with them.........

War is not the Answer this will only Force the use of these Weapons and give the leaders justification for their USE....



if your not fishing your not living
 

brady

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i havent read all the replies here here so sorry if im repeating some one ...but america has never won a war apart from its own civil war (they fought each other so america had to be victorious..lol).
america isnt the worlds favorite country as the tv would want you to belive[xx(]
 

Newt

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Errr Brady -

Our revolutionary war (ended 1776) - when it started Britain owned the American Colonies. When it ended, you didn't.

1812-1814 - either ya'll lost or just quit. Hard to say for sure.

Mexican-American War - when it started, Mexico owned Texas and California. When it ended, we owned em along with the Arizona Territory. Sounds like a win to me.

Spanish-American War - when it started Spain owned Cuba. When it ended, they didn't. Again, sounds like a win to me.

Or am I missing something here?

In fact, I think Viet Nam was the first time we'd been on the losing side..

As to the US being the world's favorite country - nope. Not. But we are our favorite country and that's the important thing, I think.

Newt Vail
 

splodger

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I support the stance taken by Bush and Blair.
These weapons of mass destruction must be accounted for.
After 12 years what have the Iraqi's done? Nothing but gestures made under the threat of military action.
We have to accept that after 9/11 the world changed.
But where is Osama Bin Laden?
You would think with all the intelligence that he would have been captured or killed by now.

SPLODGER
 

joe32

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I am quite surprised by the american determination to start a war with Iraq.
He's not exactly a threat to there national security nor is he a threat to Britain's,certainly not as much of a threat as North Korea.
It seems to be amazing that the Americans that they created this tyrant and now all of a sudden they want him out they have had twelve years to sort this out and now all of a sudden we cant give the UN inspectors an extra couple of months to finish there work.
All I'll say is that i hope the American fire control system to recognise friendly forces is better than it was the first time round,because i think if one british soldier is lost to friendly fire Blair will be looking for a new Job very quickly.

Joe [:D] [:D]

Don't argue with an idiot they will only bring you down to there level and beat you on experience
 
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