Qualifying matches and travel.

CluelessFishing

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Perhaps @Dave is in the best position to answer this conclusively and I ask in terms strictly of the legal position not the moral one . Of course feel free to discuss moral position if you wish but its not what I'm asking I want to know exactly the legal position from anybody who is 100% certain and clear on it.
There is a Qualifying match at Barston Lakes this weekend for the Golden Rod series. ( I dont have a ticket but I do have tickets for later in the year for other matches and incidentally am currently in tier 1) . Now there are of course those who will have tickets from all over the country and there will be anglers from each tier with tickets including 3 . Solihull where the match is staged is Tier 2.
So my questions are
1. Would there be any laws broken by an angler travelling to the venue and participating from a tier 3 .
2 .If there are would said angler have any legal entitlement to a ticket refund from the organisers in view of the fact they are legally prevented from attending.
3. Does the venue have any legal responsibility to stop people from a tier 3 area attending their venue
4 Does the organiser have any legal responsibility to stop people from a tier 3 area attending their event
5 and last if the venue and or the organiser do have such a responsibility and do exclude tier 3 attendees are those anglers then legally entitled to a refund .

Please just the legal position we all have views on the moral position and have aired them many times . The moral position is the responsibility of the individual angler I am asking about the law ... not guidance .... the actual law.
 
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rudd

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Perhaps Dave is in the best position to answer this conclusively and I ask in terms strictly of the legal position not the moral one . Of course feel free to discuss moral position if you wish but its not what I'm asking I want to know exactly the legal position from anybody who is 100% certain and clear on it.
There is a Qualifying match at Barston Lakes this weekend for the Golden Rod series. ( I dont have a ticket but I do have tickets for later in the year for other matches) . Now there are of course those who will have tickets from all over the country and there will be anglers from each tier with tickets including 3 . Solihull where the match is staged is Tier 2.
So my questions are
1. Would there be any laws broken by an angler travelling to the venue and participating from a tier 3 .
2 .If there are would said angler have any legal entitlement to a ticket refund from the organisers in view of the fact they are legally prevented from attending.
3. Does the venue have any legal responsibility to stop people from a tier 3 area attending their venue
4 Does the organiser have any legal responsibility to stop people from a tier 3 area attending their event
5 and last if the venue and or the organiser do have such a responsibility and do exclude tier 3 attendees are those anglers then legally entitled to a refund .

Please just the legal position we all have views on the moral position and have aired them many times . The moral position is the responsibility of the individual angler I am asking about the law ... not guidance .... the actual law.
TBH that question can only be answered by the angling trust who would need to consult a legal team.

I would say the Venue should set up a QR code and any attending should have to use it.
 

CluelessFishing

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TBH that question can only be answered by the angling trust who would need to consult a legal team.

I would say the Venue should set up a QR code and any attending should have to use it.
Agreed and I know @Dave does have connections and tends to be well informed in such matters which is why I framed the question in the way I did . I am trying to avoid answers regarding what people think should happen and find out if anybody actually knows what should happen
 

mickthechippy

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I had it as an E mail,

it specified the legal obligations with regard to covid
 

mickthechippy

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CluelessFishing

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I had it as an E mail,

it specified the legal obligations with regard to covid
Ive just looked on the AT website which pretty much says follow the guidelines . What few people seem to be clear on is whether the law prevents such travel. Face masks for example on public transport are law and there are penalties should people not comply . If its not law perhaps its time it was because if its guidelines some people are going to choose not to follow them who would in fact follow the law .
 

Dave

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I spent some considerable time on this very subject yesterday and let's just say I'm not comfortable with the conclusion...

The Angling Trust's stance relating to another competition is such:


National is still on

Dear Team Captain

Please see the latest update from the Angling Trust re; the Team Commercial Stillwater Championship
which is taking place on Saturday as below;

“The Angling Trust is charged with interpreting the government guidance, advising on the regulations currently in force and informing all disciplines of angling so that they may continue to fish safely.
Competitive angling remains permitted in all three tiers under the Coronavirus Regulations which provide relevant exceptions to the Rule of Six.
Namely:
“Other sports” – (materially outdoor), “which is organised by a business, a charitable, benevolent or philanthropic organisation or a public body for the purposes of allowing persons who are not elite sportspersons to take part in any sport or other fitness related activity”
“Relevant outdoor activity” – which “means a physical activity which is carried on outdoors and for which a licence, permit or certificate issued by a public body to carry on the activity, or for any equipment used for the purposes of the activity”.
However, to comply with the regulations outdoor sporting events are required to complete a risk assessment on each occasion and follow the approved guidelines laid down by the relevant national governing body. The Angling Trust has updated its guidelines which will be followed by the Commercial Stillwater Championship on October 24th and the necessary risk assessments are all in place.

It should be noted that the regulations do not cover travel between the various tiers and that the guidance in this respect is purely advisory. Furthermore, Sport England has placed no onus on national governing bodies to police the travel to and from sporting events. The decision on whether or not to attend is one left to the participants who should appraise themselves of the guidance currently in place for their own areas. The only exception is in Wales where travel for sporting events is prohibited under legislation during the ‘firebreak period’. Therefore, anglers providing a Welsh address who have qualified for an Angling Trust Final will be advised that they cannot attend at this time but will be offered tickets to the same event in 2021.
We are currently reviewing our advertised match fishing programme to see what further adjustments might be necessary.
The Team Commercial Stillwater Championship at Lindholme Lakes on October 24th is not currently in a Tier 3 area and will be run strictly in accordance with our COVID guidelines for competitive fishing. “

Thank you
Kind regards
Sandra Johnson
Competitions Administration Manager


The AT further add on their own website...


UPDATE – On October 14, the Government introduced a new three tier system of Covid restrictions. Fishing and outdoor sports remain accepted by the Government as low risk activities and can largely continue within the new regulations in all the three tiers. However, there has been some tightening of the restrictions and the government discourages travel into and out of the Tier 3, Very High, alert level areas. As anglers we have an individual responsibility to fish safely, to adhere strictly to the rules and to follow the appropriate guidance for travel in the various areas.


For advice and further restrictions on local lockdowns, please see the latest Government guidance.


My belief on this is that the issue is two fold ...

- They can not tell Match Anglers they can't fish this weekend without getting shot down by the hordes.

- They can stand back and watch Match Anglers hang themselves and then stand proud and say we did tell you


In answer to your questions:

1. Would there be any laws broken by an angler travelling to the venue and participating from a tier 3 .
No laws as such however Governement Guidance states you should not travel from or into a Tier 3 area for any other purpose than Work, Education, Care duties

2 .If there are would said angler have any legal entitlement to a ticket refund from the organisers in view of the fact they are legally prevented from attending.
If the angler is following the Government's guidance there is no legal entitlement to a refund from the organiser, however morally perhaps so

3. Does the venue have any legal responsibility to stop people from a tier 3 area attending their venue
No, they have no powers to do so, however they can advise otherwise

4 Does the organiser have any legal responsibility to stop people from a tier 3 area attending their event
No, not legally, perhaps morally.

5 and last if the venue and or the organiser do have such a responsibility and do exclude tier 3 attendees are those anglers then legally entitled to a refund .
Answered above


In my opinion as editor of what is possibly the largest fishing community website in the UK, the Angling Trust needs to step up and take a definite lead on this, make a decision regardless of how uncomfortable it might be, and lay it out in black and white what they expect of Anglers in relation to the Tier structure even if it means repeating government advice.
Without which they are presently saying to all "Make your own mind up as to what you feel is the correct thing to do" and we all know that people will travel outside of Tier3 areas into lower risk areas to fish prearranged competitions.

The onus should not be put at the feet of the fishery owners or match organisers to decide what is right or not, likewise anglers need to be given clear cut direction - You must, you must not

There is going to be a schit storm over this if and when the media pick up on it. I am currently aware it has been noted.
There are far too many people affected both in angling and outside of it and the current trend when not allowed to do something is to point the finger and say "well what about them..."
 

CluelessFishing

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I spent some considerable time on this very subject yesterday and let's just say I'm not comfortable with the conclusion...

The Angling Trust's stance relating to another competition is such:





The AT further add on their own website...





My belief on this is that the issue is two fold ...

- They can not tell Match Anglers they can't fish this weekend without getting shot down by the hordes.

- They can stand back and watch Match Anglers hang themselves and then stand proud and say we did tell you


In answer to your questions:

1. Would there be any laws broken by an angler travelling to the venue and participating from a tier 3 .
No laws as such however Governement Guidance states you should not travel from or into a Tier 3 area for any other purpose than Work, Education, Care duties

2 .If there are would said angler have any legal entitlement to a ticket refund from the organisers in view of the fact they are legally prevented from attending.
If the angler is following the Government's guidance there is no legal entitlement to a refund from the organiser, however morally perhaps so

3. Does the venue have any legal responsibility to stop people from a tier 3 area attending their venue
No, they have no powers to do so, however they can advise otherwise

4 Does the organiser have any legal responsibility to stop people from a tier 3 area attending their event
No, not legally, perhaps morally.

5 and last if the venue and or the organiser do have such a responsibility and do exclude tier 3 attendees are those anglers then legally entitled to a refund .
Answered above


In my opinion as editor of what is possibly the largest fishing community website in the UK, the Angling Trust needs to step up and take a definite lead on this, make a decision regardless of how uncomfortable it might be, and lay it out in black and white what they expect of Anglers in relation to the Tier structure even if it means repeating government advice.
Without which they are presently saying to all "Make your own mind up as to what you feel is the correct thing to do" and we all know that people will travel outside of Tier3 areas into lower risk areas to fish prearranged competitions.

The onus should not be put at the feet of the fishery owners or match organisers to decide what is right or not, likewise anglers need to be given clear cut direction - You must, you must not

There is going to be a schit storm over this if and when the media pick up on it. I am currently aware it has been noted.
There are far too many people affected both in angling and outside of it and the current trend when not allowed to do something is to point the finger and say "well what about them..."
Thankyou for that dave . Much clearer . The fact of the matter is the Government should stop with the "guidance" and put these directives in law then its not left to the Angling trust or such bodies in other areas to issue more "our guidance is to follow government guidance" which is pretty much a pointless statement ..... if its a necessary move the government should make it law removing all ambiguity .
 

Peter

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The current Tier 3 statement is............

People are being advised not to travel into or out of tier three areas, other than for work, education, youth services or because of caring responsibilities.

However this is just framed as "Advice" and as such there is no law against it which shows the shortcomings. Unless it becomes a legal requirement the vast majority will choose to ignore it.
 

tipitinmick

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The current Tier 3 statement is............

People are being advised not to travel into or out of tier three areas, other than for work, education, youth services or because of caring responsibilities.

However this is just framed as "Advice" and as such there is no law against it which shows the shortcomings. Unless it becomes a legal requirement the vast majority will choose to ignore it.
You don’t think the government are trying to cover their own politicians and advisers here do you Dave ? I mean, with they’re track record it’s only a matter of time before one gets photographed 240 mile away from their main residence. These tiers don’t mean a thing until they are made law. You know my stance on this subject. One month. No travel whatsoever. Job done ..... for a while at least. I did say though that I could not understand why Doncaster hadn’t been locked down earlier. No one wears a mask here. It’s despicable. Maybe, just maybe folk will take notice now.
 

OldTaff

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The advice is sufficiently ambiguous that, without a guaranteed refund of fees, anglers will travel from tier 3 to compete.
 

CluelessFishing

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You don’t think the government are trying to cover their own politicians and advisers here do you Dave ? I mean, with they’re track record it’s only a matter of time before one gets photographed 240 mile away from their main residence. These tiers don’t mean a thing until they are made law. You know my stance on this subject. One month. No travel whatsoever. Job done ..... for a while at least. I did say though that I could not understand why Doncaster hadn’t been locked down earlier. No one wears a mask here. It’s despicable. Maybe, just maybe folk will take notice now.
People wont take notice now ....... To take notice it needs to be law . Even then some won't take notice but many more will . The case in my OP for example wouldn't arise because there would be no event to travel to therefore nothing to break the law for . People are basically selfish ....... everybody .....to a greater or lesser degree . And we all tend to find good excuses to tell ourselves when we transgress . How many of us haven't broken the speeed limit because we were "in a rush" . Risking killing someone .
Again going back to the situation of the OP . Many of those anglers bought those tickets before there was any indication of "tiers" . Since there is no firm law preventing it the organisers of those events ...including it seems the angling trust ..... are going to go ahead with them . Therefore we are left with a position where a bloke who may well have had to save up hard for that £50 ticket money has a choice to make .... does he stay home and lose his money and his day out because he is the moral guy while many others go ahead ..... or does he go and participate with everybody else because its within the law. He may well follow every rule going to the letter ... wear a mask .... not meet non household members etc etc . But will still be vilified if he chooses to do something which is within the law but some other people will see as "the wrong thing" .
At the risk of repeating myself It all eventually comes back to the fact we need to get a grip and if measures introduced are seen as necessary make them a legal requirement . If not seen as necessary stop "guiding" about them.
 

rudd

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Thankyou for that dave . Much clearer . The fact of the matter is the Government should stop with the "guidance" and put these directives in law then its not left to the Angling trust or such bodies in other areas to issue more "our guidance is to follow government guidance" which is pretty much a pointless statement ..... if its a necessary move the government should make it law removing all ambiguity .
Laws take years to legally pass!
 

CluelessFishing

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Laws take years to legally pass!
No they don't .... laws were passed in a matter of days over brexit specifically in trying to prevent it and some have been passed in days over covid . With an 80 majority the government can pass what it likes at whatever speed it likes . They take years when it suits those that are passing them to take years
 

rudd

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With Students and others being fined £10,000.00 for house parties it wont be long before a sporting event organiser gets nailed.
Local politician wants some media coverage.
He turns up to a big match with local constabulary - TO CHECK rod licences - pefectly legal.
Those without a licence ? those with one but from another tier ????
 

Dave

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CF - the issue becomes more compounded when "where a bloke who may well have had to save up hard for that £50 ticket money has a choice to make" is also a member of a team whose commitment to the 'team effort' is essential to their performance.

The real danger with this is we run the risk of putting Angling back in the spotlight and jeopardise our freedom to be able to fish as and when we want, back to square one, just at the time when more people than ever are getting involved in fishing and when the tackle trade and fisheries are making hay recouping their earlier losses.

I have bought this thread to the attention of the Angling Trust and welcomed their opinion in line with our policy of involving businesses and organisations where they are discussed within threads.
 

CluelessFishing

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With Students and others being fined £10,000.00 for house parties it wont be long before a sporting event organiser gets nailed.
Local politician wants some media coverage.
He turns up to a big match with local constabulary - TO CHECK rod licences - pefectly legal.
Those without a licence ? those with one but from another tier ????
As established by dave earlier those from another tier will be breaking no laws Caveat added .....unless from wales in which case they would in fact be breaking actual laws as opposed to guidance
 
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