Flourocarbon to Spade End/General Knot strength

Zerkalo

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Think this deserves it's own thread to save over-hijacking another thread and because I'm pulling my hair out.

I have two spools of flourocarbon line. Reflo in 0.18 and Suppplex in 0.19. I'm trying to tie some size 14 Animal Spade hooks as a test.

The line consistently breaks just at the spade when pulled quite gently indicating poor knot strength? Even with Grinner knots the knot strength does not seem to be what it should be. I don't doubt that many people use flourocarbon hook lengths without any problems. So what is happening here? Does anyone else have the same problem with flourocarbon?
 

mike fox

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Tie an ordinary reef/granny knot in the line and pull tight to see if it breaks as easily.
 

Zerkalo

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Tie an ordinary reef/granny knot in the line and pull tight to see if it breaks as easily.

Yes it does! With a very light pull! I can't break the line by hand easily at all with no knot in it.

Indicates poor knot strength? It's actually too easy, surprisingly easy how soft I have to pull with a granny knot in it for it to break, as though the line is slicing through itself?

Cheers.
 

Bullmoose Jackson

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This may be an unpopular stance, but I have never been able to tie a knot in fluorocarbon that I am happy with. Knots to eyed hooks are better than knots to spade hooks, but in each case (from my experience), fluorocarbon knots are weaker than the equivalent knot in mono.

And I doubt the issue with the granny knot is unique to any single brand of fluorocarbon - the granny knot is very detrimental to all lines.
 

mike fox

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The only suggestion I can make is you get in touch with the manufacturer and ask what knot they recommend.
 

Zerkalo

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0.18mm Stroft GTM Nylon I can't break by hand even with a Granny knot in it. Flourocarbon falls apart with said knot in it. Interesting because I know it's a popular hook length choice even recommended for Barbel.

Maybe I should contact Drennan and Preston, you're right.
 

richox12

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An overhand knot in the middle of the line is a terrible knot and the line will simply cut itself. No matter what. I'm sure it's what EFTTA (and the ATA ?) used in their line tests to check labelling accuracy etc. Think about it. If you managed to get such a knot in your hooklength there's no way you'd carry on using it. You know it's bad news.

I can't break 20lb sea line on a sharp pull but put the overhand knot in the middle of it and I can break it very easily. That tells me nothing about the line just the knot.

Line will break, often, at the spade. It's not unusual (same with a No Knot on a hooks eye). It will be a weak point. It's simply at what B/S it breaks at. If it's breaking close to it's actual or real B/S then nothing amiss.
 

Sam Vimes

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Different types of line require different knots. I would avoid any kind of strangulation knot with any line, be it mono, fluoro or co-polymer. A strangulation knot will impact on the breaking strain of any line. How much of an impact it has comes down to the exact properties of the line concerned.

I use figure of 8 loops and a Drennan hook tier (7/8 turn knot) when using Supplex Fluoro for hooklinks. There's a fair chance that it will break more easily than a mono of equivalent BS or diameter, but it's not a massive difference.
 

Zerkalo

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Both brands break with a granny knot as though they were feather light 1 or 2lb lines. Be interesting to see if anyone else has flouro line of any brand and could try the same thing and see if they get different results? With nylon the granny knot weakens the line but does not simply slice through itself so easily as is happening here.

It's enough for me to want to ditch flouro unless using a Palomar knot which is the only knot I can get to reasonably hold.
 

Sam Vimes

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Why on earth would you complain that a line breaks with a ridiculously inappropriate knot? Fluorocarbon has different properties to mono. You either accept the benefits and limitations, or you don't. There's no point in putting a daft knot in fluoro and complaining when it breaks.
 

Zerkalo

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Why on earth would you complain that a line breaks with a ridiculously inappropriate knot? Fluorocarbon has different properties to mono. You either accept the benefits and limitations, or you don't. There's no point in putting a daft knot in fluoro and complaining when it breaks.

I disagree, as you can put the same knot in Nylon of the same stated breaking strain and still see what effect the knot has. So it's not so ridiculous or daft in that sense. It gives a good indicator as to why strangulation knots do not work very well for me with flourocarbon.

Sorry if that seems curt to you.
 

bricky72

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I’ve tied few hooks this last week with reflo Fluor and had Odd one snap as tighting it up on to spade but you can do same with mono and since this article came up I’ve tied some by matchman and gizmo and not had issues
ive found with the Fluor though don’t have as much tension on line while tying spade

might be you got to much tension from spool to hook while whipping ???
 

Sam Vimes

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I disagree, as you can put the same knot in Nylon of the same stated breaking strain and still see what effect the knot has. So it's not so ridiculous or daft in that sense. It gives a good indicator as to why strangulation knots do not work very well for me with flourocarbon.

Sorry if that seems curt to you.

Curt doesn't bother me in the least, ridiculous comparisons do. Different lines respond differently to different knots. If you refuse to change your knots as necessary, then there's little point in ever trying a new type of line. There's nothing wrong at all in deciding that fluorocarbon isn't the line for you. Deciding that it's not for you because it breaks easily with a granny knot in it is ridiculous.
 

buygoodtackle

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To take a different tack, have you checked the spade on the hook, occasionally you get a batch that are sharp and cut through any line easily.
 

Zerkalo

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I tie the same way with a matchman ttyer and the same grinner knots with nylon and do not have a problem. Note this is not a FC Sucks thread.

Just wondering why it's not working with those knots which are breaking so easily as other people use it without issues.
 

richox12

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I still can't help but think 5lb fluoro line 0.18mm is properly strong for a spade end hook and you should not really be able to break it simply tying a hook and then pulling it up tight. Unless you pull REALLY hard and it breaks simply because it was pushed to the max B/S anyway. I honestly (not being funny) don't know how you can do it.

I guess the 0.18mm 5lb nylon might not be accurate. It might be underrated (many are. Fluoros tend to be more accurate). And so not a fair comparison.

Do you catch the spade when spinning the hooktyer ? Although you use the Matchman for both nylon & Fluoro so you'd think it would happen with both. And if you damaged the line on the spade it would break a little way above the hook and leave the knot alone (as when you pull the line through that part of line will be further up).

It is a puzzle.

But Sam's right. Complain and say the lines break with an overhand strangulation knot in the middle and they're likely to say 'No sh!te'.
 

Tinca Mad

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The molecules in Flourocarbon are tighter together and so advice as to the best knots to use with that Flourocarbon should be got from the manufacturer.
In this Gardner Copolymer article it states that :
Please note Blood knots should really only be used with Fluorocarbon – they are not recommended with copolymer lines.
Hopefully Preston can have some answers for you(y)
 

Nicky Dodds

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I've been using fluorocarbon for about 18 months now and use it for pole and feeder hooklengths. I use it in 0.10 and 0.12 on the pole and 0.14 for bream feeder fishing. Under these conditions I only use a black matchman to tie spade end hooks and use a double overhand loop on the other end which as we know isnt the strongest of loop knots. I sometimes have to feeder fish to a far bank and if theres any vegetation or unseen snags I prefer a weak spot below my feeder. The only snags I have hit so far have been a bath towel which I landed and possibly a boat tarpaulin that I didnt and in the end the hook straightened. I have also used 0.16 with a knot less knot on a short hooklength for a pellet feeder for bream again with a double overhand loop. In the main most of my hooklength failures have occurred when a double figure pike has taken a fish on the way in. Usually I keep them on for a fair while but I guess its wishful thinking. Is it the line that is no good?
 

Silverfisher

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I’m rubbish at spade end knots so normally buy pre tieds but from my little experience of tying them myself they don’t really like line thicker than around 0.15 max.

As for knotting fluorocarbon generally I treat it the same as mono in that I mostly use 5 or 6 turns blood knots or whatever they are called. Doing the extra tuck is more important than with mono though as it doesn’t squish into itself as much for want of a better way of putting it. It becomes less important to tuck as you get thicker line though (beyond any thickness you’d use for coarse fishing tbf) as it seems to hold better and gets harder to tuck anyway the thicker it is. When you get really thick it can pay to drop a turn as well or you’ll never get it back over itself for the necessary tuck let alone and extra one.
 

richox12

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The molecules in Flourocarbon are tighter together and so advice as to the best knots to use with that Flourocarbon should be got from the manufacturer.
In this Gardner Copolymer article it states that :
Please note Blood knots should really only be used with Fluorocarbon – they are not recommended with copolymer lines.
Hopefully Preston can have some answers for you(y)

Again, we're all obviously different and it shows our experiences and abilities. I'm sure that if we got together 10 anglers and got each to tie the 'same' knot in the same line and then tested them we would get differing results (as well as differing appearances). Some things might be obvious and others not and leave us baffled. Silverfisher's knots might be great, mine rubbish, Zerkalo's OK and BGT awful (sorry BGT).

I have used blood knots (inc 1/2 blood & blood loop) in all manner of monos, mostly copolymers and basic nylons, for over 40 years. I cannot think that I have EVER had the blood fail unless I knew or suspected that I got it wrong and just 'winged' it anyway. And even then it has been very, very, very rare. A 1/2 Blood, I know, is not the best knot but I use it very confidently because I know it's still stronger than I need. A Blood loop has NEVER let me down and I have caught a shedload of fish using them. And yet it now seems that it is recommended NOT to tie Blood knots in anything but Fluorocarbon !!!

I'm not sure that the boffin in the lab in Japan really will know which knot is 'best'. But you/we will through experience.
 
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