cormorants fore or against

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scouse

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hi lads
just read an artical in match fishing
on cormorants, if you go to
www.cormorantbusters.co.uk
see what you think? it my open your eyes,
tightlines dave (scouse)
 

AlexR

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icon_smile_evil.gif cormorants should be shot, as people should be entitled to protect their livelyhood. also the articles in match fishing show that these are not native birds(only the costal ones are or something)

;)
 

Peter

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Nothing against cormorants,but i'm not sure i could eat a whole one!

Happiness is a rod in your hand.

Edited by - peter on 04 January 2002 10:56:03 PM
 

Cyprinid_boy

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Maybe you chaps should consider shooting commercial coastal sea fisherman as annual over fishing has caused the inland migration of the black beasts. I think you chaps are bias - you dont want cormorants, but you'll all happily have a shag!!!

icon_smile_evil.gif
 

Ziptrev

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Cyp,
The Commercial fishermen of the UK have been asking for years to make a European Law increasing the size of the holes in the nets thus allowing the small non landable fish that are at present crushed to death to escape. Not over fishing, our boys are only allowed a MAFF checked Quota,heavily policed in Britain and a joke in Europe.
These fish would be happily consumed by cormorants in their natural habitat coastal areas and help to relieve (not solve) the problem.
Your defence of Catfish (again an unnatural predator in our waters) and love of cormorants makes me wonder what do you fish for? Im happy with seeing silver fish thrive and quite content with the specialist waters if the Cat boys want to go for them.
However, It could well end up that Cats, Zander etc. get persecuted for taking Cormorant chicks! as thats all that'll be left!
Go to Lowestoft and sail for a few trips with the 5% of guys still there from when I trawled 14 day trips on the Boston Wasp and see what Cormorant or Euro legislation support you get there
Trev
 

Dave

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It looks like this could be a very emotive subject.
The problem with Cormorants from an anglers perspective is the threat to the sport, the Fishery Owner would see it as a threat to his/her livelihood, the bird watcher/ conservationist would see them as being natural (even if disposed a little)

I think the article in the cormorantbusters site puts thing in the picture (IMO) Ive 'borrowed' this bit:

The RSPB preach that the birds are "simply exploiting new opportunities","that cormorants are an inland as well as coastal species". Such explanations from such an august body satisfy everyone but anglers, and are complete rubbish. I've fished for 35 years and have never seen a cormorant until recently. How about you?

The root cause of inland cormorant predation is more likely to do with a real hot potato that no one wants to take hold of, and that is the dwindling fish stocks at sea. I'm told that in the seventies, we took 350,000 thousand tonnes of cod from the north sea. This years quota is 34,000 tonnes. If that's the case, the sea birds who after all are the fishes greatest predator, after other fish that is, must also be going short. Each year there is mounting evidence that the fishery will calories, it happened in Newfoundland and it could happen here, (a fresh water fishery could easily collapse due to cormorants.) Fisheries either inland or at sea seem to be a difficult concept for governments to grasp.

But what about the exploitation argument? I have just returned from Sweden where anglers and naturalists reported that cormorants are appearing for the first time at lakes in the centre of their country. Now Sweden's 96,000 lakes have always held fish, since Adam was a lad, so why are cormorants only just appearing now? Could it be because they are just hungry?


Dave icon_smile.gif



Edited by - Dave on 05 January 2002 11:07:31 PM
 

Geoff P

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Dave,
As I said in previous posts on another forum, i went out on Christmas Day to a lake in the centre of Swansea Enterprise park, called the Fenrod. I believe Trog might have seen it on his travels to the darkest depths of this god forsaken country.

I think the cormorants on the lake had newer tackle than I did 'cos they were catching all the fish. When I first moved down here 5 years ago I didn't see a cormorant on the water. There are now 8 in residence and the shoals of roach and dace are really hard to find. That is for me not the b***** birds.

Somebody in the EA has to address this problem in the very near future, they cannot keep ignoring it and leaving things up to the RSPB (a misguided bunch of budgie collectors in my opinion)

Geoff
If it swims, catch it.
 

Trogg

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Geoff

As you know i've got ears everywhere & i can tell you for definate that the RSPB has got a lot of deserters in its ranks over the cormorant issue :)

They are trying to protect an alien species to this country & it ain't going down to well (plus a lot of the members are anglers who are seeing first hand the damage these critters are doing)

All we can do is watch & wait to see what happens

Alan
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esox.20

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Firstly it was a European directive (forerunner of the Wildlife act) that placed the cormorant on the protected list. At the time numbers were low. But now there are far to many. It is the european sub species thats moved inland here. These are an inland bird. there have been colonies of these for many years. One sutch existed not far from Stafford 12/15 years ago.
I do not wish to see then eradicated but they do need controlling. there are only two methods shooting and destroying the nests and eggs during breeding.
Can I suggest that instead of preaching fish losses that do not mean any thing to our bird loving friends. That instead we use the argument of how these large numbers of cormorants are decimating the native Herons,grebes and Kingfishers etc. It may well be that this could be a turning point in the argument.John

chill out go fishing
 

Ziptrev

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Scouse
Thanks for highlighting that website
Ive just spent over an hour reading it thoroughly.
Its bloody frightening stuff!
I've downloaded the petition, and I urge all of you to read and perhaps you'll do the same.
23000 names aint enough to worry Tony Blair off his 'I am the world policeman campaign since Sep 11th. We need 10 times as many.
Trev
 

Cyprinid_boy

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Ziptrev,

I did not profess any love for cormorants. In my job I see the real picture of devastation they cause and the heartbreak they create with regards to fishery owners. Eradication is the only answer in the anglers eyes, but I was trying, in a slightly humorous way, to point out the wider picture.

There is a reason as to why cormorants have come in land and with them being opportunistic it can only be in the search for food. Therefore, one would think that their original food stocks have been depleted and Ill tell you global warming is not the cause. As for fisherman calling for larger net sizes and sticking to quotas.... They dont land black fish, catch and return at sea until bigger higher value fish are caught, cheat by putting objects in their cod end to remove the bigger, legal mesh size. Nets are purchased, not allocated, therefore, could you not just buy one with bigger holes. Its not all, but it happens and often. A simplistic view, but its a simple subject. The sea has been riddled with greedy (and I dont mean that in an insulting way, sometimes there is no option financially) fisherman from many countries. So if you still think that stocks have not been over fished and cormorants have flown in land because they like the scenery then I give up.

As for your comments on catfish I assume you have no knowledge of the area. Show me some sound scientific evidence that catfish are mean predators, and NOT scavengers, and Ill listen to your argument on the subject. People will quite happily make rash statements about such species, but still go out and fish for illegally imported carp etc. Are these not a problem? How about grass carp? They are under the same legislation as catfish the nasty weed and invertebrate murderers. Rainbow trout non indigenous!!! As with DEFRA and the EA, I see arguments here that have no support scientifically, most that have be constructed from a short report in the anglers mail.

It makes me mad and sad!!

Cyp.



Edited by - Dave on 06 January 2002 07:28:39 AM
 

scouse

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HI DAVE
HOPE YOU DIDN;T MIND ME PUTING THIS (AS YOU SAY EMOTIVE SUJECT)
ON THE B/B, JUST THOUGHT IT WOULD BE SOMTHING DIFFERANT
TO TALK ABOUT
TIGHTLINES DAVE (SCOUSE)
 

Geoff P

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quote:
It looks like this could be a very emotive subject.
[/i]

Dave icon_smile.gif



Edited by - Dave on 05 January 2002 11:07:31 PM

Emotive subjects should be OK as long as the posts stay on the subject and don't get personal. I don't mind any body having their own views as long as they agree with mine :D

Geoff
If it swims, catch it.
 

esox.20

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I must disagree strongly with your statement 'that cormorants need to be eradicated'. This type of statement will win us no friends and will just cause the bird lovers to dig in their heels.

chill out go fishing
 

Dave

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Hi Dave

quote:HOPE YOU DIDN;T MIND ME PUTING THIS (AS YOU SAY EMOTIVE SUJECT)
ON THE B/B, JUST THOUGHT IT WOULD BE SOMTHING DIFFERANT
TO TALK ABOUT


No problems at all, if it wasn't for healthy debate we wouldn't be able to hear other's views and as Geoff said:

quote: Emotive subjects should be OK as long as the posts stay on the subject and don't get personal


icon_smile_big.gif Dave
 

Ziptrev

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Guys I couldnt agree more with Esoxs statement and if anyone talks of extermination or extinction for the Cormorant! then they are as stupid as those people who proclaim that its tough, but we must just ignore it.
All creatures have a right to survive, but when an imbalance has been created by all sorts of factors, mostly mans mismanagement, then necessary adjustments must be made.
Cyp as Esox pointed out earlier, its a European inland bird thats causing the problem. Whatever has that to do with the lesser problem of our native coastal birds. Yes , overfishing in the PAST (see Daves quota cut post) caused a massive problem, but to go into the realms of fantasy over'black'landings by British fisherman is totally without foundation.
Yes nets are bought at huge prices,at a FIXED LEGAL mesh size,(no 24 hooks allowed!)and also confiscated for any contravention of quotas or size limits.
You CANNOT land undersized fish,have to chuck em back over the side.
Your 'black' description conjures up images to me of an Aberdeen 700 ton beamer,rowing without lights up to Romney Marsh to meet Dr Syn fishmeal.com! It just dont happen, the loss of 95% of jobs in the industry means that the risk of ship confiscation is far to great to bend the rules. Remember our Government is happy to rid itself of another struggling industry,whilst allowing Brussels to set the quotas.
Try pulling a large net with 'Objects?' stuffed in the cod end, this creates water resistance, increases stress and reduces speed.Too much stress,torn expensive nets,too little speed,fish have time to escape entrance. No , dont kick a dieing industry in the teeth with invented malpractices.
As to your catfish lol sorry if I upset you and I have no desire whatsoever to kill, eradicate, hurt harm or in any way prohibit any other human beings pleasure. BUT I hate illegal introductions being forced onto me too.
Lets call the Cat a scavenger then, or as it provenly does take chicks and live bait, an opportunist scavenger! This for the wet brigade conjures up a nice old refuse collector fish, doing his utmost to tidy up the other naughty fishes mess! I can live with that, dont you realise Bream and Roach and practically ALL fish are the same. Bream have been caught on livebait and plugs, spinners etc., so the argument is the same. My fear is that the damn things grow so big that the next opportunist scavenger may take a little opportune snack that could just be the specimen size Roach or Rudd Im still waiting to catch.
I should like 'em cos theyre ugly, pot-bellied and slimy! like I used to be. however, I,ve lost weight, just ugly and slimy now.
But where they are then let them stay, where they can be introduced by consensus, let them come, where you and many like minded people wish to expand your chances, let it happen.
Dont stop with the Grass Carp, which I wholeheartedly agree with your statements, but dont forget the Common Carp and Pheasant, both introduced 2000 years ago by the Roman Empire as a food source. Also the later grey squirrel (but like John Cleese 'Dont mention the Red')
As for the Cat, why is it the only import that they've given up a record status for?
Finally, and I hope not to give Dave any editing lol, Id love to see what he cut out.
If we do nothing about the cormorants being in the wrong place,then perhaps we should have done nothing about Hitler being in Poland. Then you wouldnt have the Polish and Russian immigrants now living in Germany , catching all the fish of all varieties and killing them to eat. ( my son lives in Herford now and regularly argues with people who try and stop him returning double figure barbel to the Weser)
Then their cormorants would not have come here cos their fish are being stolen.
But then I wouldnt be allowed to say this.
I simply stand for proactive reduction by the best method (and egg and nest site destruction looks good to me)of the inland cormorants
I respect and support the abused British Fishing Industry.
I want everyone to enjoy their fishing 1/2 as much as I do if possible.
and I want every freedom for individuals preferences to be taken into account , not only for now , but for my boys and yours and the generations to come.
If I can sum it up, even with 5 kids I wasnt strongly opposed when they made homosexuality legal!
But God help-em if they make it compulsory!
Trev
 

Cyprinid_boy

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icon_smile_tongue.gifsorry all. Maybe i'll pass on the next round. One thing is for sure though. 8 years ago the firm i worked for netted a small lake in shropshire where the club had recently stocked a quantity of high valued crucian carp. None were left and they were, well, in tears. They new nothing of cormorants. 8 years on and i read well educated (maybe not mine, lol) arguements on the subject of fish eating birds. To me this is excellent as nothing would ever had been done if people didn't realize what had been going on. Maybe the press are to praise for this i don't know.

C.
 

scouse

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HI DAVE
THANKS FOR YOU REPLY,
IT JUST GOES TO SHOW HOW INTELLECTUAL
THE PEOPLE ARE ON THIS SITE, IT GOES TO SHOW
WHAT A GOOD B/B DOES FOR THE BRAIN
WHEN A DIFFERANT TOPIC COMES UP ESPECALLY
WHEN IT COULD BE EMOTIVE
THANKS AGAIN FOR A REALY GOOD FISHING SITE
DAVE(SCOUSE)
 

Ziptrev

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Cyp GOOD MAN and thanks for raising the queries,
My main source of contact over Brit fisheries since I moved inland is Tony Walls daughter, who moves from Burnham on Crouch to Lowestoft with CEFAS (Centre for Environmental Fisheries and Aqua Studies) sub -div of DEFA in April. She spends months on one of 2 converted trawlers they have investigating the sea bed,fish prescence,temp (and dont completely dismiss Global warmong as a contributory factor) alien species etc.
I drink (purely medicinally ) 5 week-day nights with the guy and am fascinated to learn how we're trying to solve our problems, usually to be undermined by our wonderful politicians!
Its nice to be important, but its more important to be nice!
Enjoy, Its later than you think!
Trev
 
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