Confused about line diameters.

abbo27

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I started a thread regarding Shimano Invisitec line which I like but am struggling to get hold of. I was recommended Matrix Horizon X as an alternative which looks to be good stuff. It is only 0.18 at 6lb. I was looking at various alternative reel lines and was surprised by the huge difference in diameters for the same breaking strain. For example Guru Dragline comes in a6 0.25 for the sane BS which is nearly 40% thicker. Maxima Chameleon comes in at 0.22, Drennan Feeder and Method, 0.23 as is Preston Sinking Feeder Mono. So my question is why the big differences in diameter and does it affect their performance?
 

rudd

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I started a thread regarding Shimano Invisitec line which I like but am struggling to get hold of. I was recommended Matrix Horizon X as an alternative which looks to be good stuff. It is only 0.18 at 6lb. I was looking at various alternative reel lines and was surprised by the huge difference in diameters for the same breaking strain. For example Guru Dragline comes in a6 0.25 for the sane BS which is nearly 40% thicker. Maxima Chameleon comes in at 0.22, Drennan Feeder and Method, 0.23 as is Preston Sinking Feeder Mono. So my question is why the big differences in diameter and does it affect their performance?
Feeder lines lay along bottom, on gravel, branches, shells etc. and get abrasion so tent to be thicker.
Pole rig and hi tech hooklength/lines are pre stretched as elastic or mainline/rod takes the strain.

Ask yourself a question - can you see 0.02mm difference?
 

richox12

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You cannot always believe what is printed on a spool. No I'm not sure I can see 0.02mm difference but there's a good chance I can feel it. And I know from experience the fish I fish for can tell the difference in hooklengths.
 

Ken the Pacman

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Traditionally the lines sold in the UK were under rated for their true breaking strain and many could be 25% and more stronger than the b/s printed on the packet.
As we gained a greater following for European products their system was based on diameters which are accurate in some cases and less so in others.
There was a ruling brought out by the firms that signed up to the European tackle trade charter that descriptions on the packet had to be within 5% of the true figures but this quietly died a death until recently it was brought sharply up to date when an Italian company was fined for telling lies on the packaging which may or may not be a turning point for seeing an accurate description of what you are buying.
 

ukzero1

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I started a thread regarding Shimano Invisitec line which I like but am struggling to get hold of. I was recommended Matrix Horizon X as an alternative which looks to be good stuff. It is only 0.18 at 6lb. I was looking at various alternative reel lines and was surprised by the huge difference in diameters for the same breaking strain. For example Guru Dragline comes in a6 0.25 for the sane BS which is nearly 40% thicker. Maxima Chameleon comes in at 0.22, Drennan Feeder and Method, 0.23 as is Preston Sinking Feeder Mono. So my question is why the big differences in diameter and does it affect their performance?
If you think that's surprising, take a look at this line...and it's stated breaking strain. 0.18 at 6lb it isn't. The 2oz is the weight of how much line there is on the spool.

1603610123478.png
 

Rick123

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If its a line for feeder fishing as a main line, I'd not worry much about diameters. Sensor really takes some beating. Regarding the hook link, you can try N-Gage its very fine, clear and strong. I've been on it now for several years now and rate it, I even use it as a main line too.
 

Neil ofthe nene

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There are two potential answers for the difference in line diameters, if you ignore the mislabeling one. Small variations of 0.01/2mm are probably caused by the BS not being exactly on the stated amount but a few ounces either side.

First is that manufacturers can stretch line beyond its elastic point thus causing permanent deformation of the diameter making it thinner. This though makes the line more brittle as some of the stretch that made it elastic and thus tough. In its extreme form the manufacturers produce the "high tech" lines that we use as pole rig and hooklength line. These lines cannot withstand the shock of casting a feeder but are fine when cushioned by elastic.

Somewhere in between the two extremes of standard nylon and high tech is probably a point at whish the line is thinner than originally made but retains as large proportion of its toughness. Given that the Matrix line is called "Horizon" I assume it is intended to aid distance casting by being thinner but still tough enough to withstand the cast. Lines like Maxima Chamaeleon are as manufactured with minimal if any stretching thus are thicker. But incredibly stretchy and tough.

The other reason there are differences is possibly due to the nylon being combined with another material to a greater or lesser degree that helps aid toughness & strength. Each manufacturer or brand will have different additives thus producing variations in stated diameter v BS.
 

solwood

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In my experience the stated diameter is pretty close the stated BS well let's say smoke and mirrors

Daiwa sensor 4lb .2mm

Diana hyper sensor 5lb .185mm

Ignoring the stated BS and use the hyper sensor as my 4lb line (.18ish is common diameter for 4lb) and ditto .20mm as my 5lb

Regular threads on here about BS v Diameter I go by diameter
 

satinet

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I tend to go by diameter.
I use bulk spools of sensor because it's cheap and fills the over deep spools most reels have. Not saying there aren't better lines but it's ok for my budget/skill level.

Anyway 6lb sensors is miles stronger than equivalent BS high tech line in my experience. To the point I've used higher BS high tech lines on method feeder hook links and never once been broken anywhere other than the hook link. Especially if you consider a knot weakens the line by probably 15 percent + or whatever.
 

Paul Cresswell

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I think we should also accept that things improve with time, a thinner line is nicer to use. I was the one who recommended the change, I used to use invisitic but switched to Horizon x, in my view very similar performance but thinner, no strength or durability issues with it and easier to get hold of (although not much around during COVID lockdown!) I have tried various other lines, sensor, tournament st, preston sinking, maxima, supplex.
 
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Neil ofthe nene

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Its not strength but toughness/brittleness. Two materials may withstand the same stress when applied gradually. But when applied suddenly the brittle material will fracture. High tech lines are brittle thus a shock loading such as a fish bolting or shaking its head can break an apparently "stronger" line.

That is why you can stand a car on four porcelain teacups if the car is lowered gently. Dropped and the cups will shatter.
 

abbo27

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Thanks for the answers, and Paul for your recommendation. I shall respool with Matrix.
 

aseadabite

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Reading time and again about this issue, I'll stick my two penneth in. As far as I am concerned there is very little difference between virtually any make at a given diameter,( assuming you can believe what it states on the spool, which you can't always). The strength of ordinary standard mono has always been understated for some reason. E.G, when i was younger people always told me that if you wanted 4lb line, then buy 3lb Maxima. My go to line is Daiwa Sensor, never had any problems with it but the strength is very understated. I was recently fishing a river with 6lb BS and hooked a snag. It took a very hard pull to break it. The amount of pressure I had to exert was much more than 6lb. I frankly do not believe many of the claims made by some makers of expensive stuff. The old saying about statements being made to catch anglers and not fish comes to mind. The best comment I remember about line was made by Dick Walker years ago. He said ' its not what a fish sees that matters,it's what it takes notice of'. So what do you want from line? It needs to be soft as possible and inconspicous in colour. And it needs to be strong enough to do the job in question. Which is why I stick to Sensor that I know and can rely on or similar type if I didn't have a supply of it which I bought cheap from a tackle shop that closed down.
 

rudd

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Another sensor fan here.?
I have always gone by breaking strain - Why?
I Target fish in weight not length ??
 

grey

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The original Invisitec was an excellent three-core mainline - it was soft, fairy hardwearing, not too thick, and it sank. About 5 years ago Shimano changed the formula (including all other Technium lines). Shimano line sales have really suffered since. The later invisitec suffered from buckling, strength inconsistency and after an hour in the water, it floats!

If it's the 'feel' and qualities of Invisitec you like, then the closest you'll get is probably a co-pol line, fluorine coated such as Berkley Fluoroshield or maybe Maver Smart Zero. You're not going to get close to the same properties with a straight mono such as sensor.

As a mainline, diameter is less important: thinner is obviously better as it cuts through the water easier - however there is always some payoff of stretch, softness and strength. A line that's thinner, stronger and more supple than any other line simply does not exist, though every manufacturer claims their line to be as such.

Choosing your ideal line is sometimes about making a compromise of the qualities you need in a line against against those you'd like. IMO the diameter of a feeder line is far less important than its strength, robustness, stretch and sinking qualities.
 

richox12

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A line that's thinner, stronger and more supple than any other line simply does not exist, though every manufacturer claims their line to be as such.
However, if a line is thinner for 'x' SAME breaking strain then it will naturally be more supple because it is actually thinner so more flexible anyway. For example: A 0.10mm line is more flexible than a 0.30mm line simply because it is so much thinner
 

grey

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However, if a line is thinner for 'x' SAME breaking strain then it will naturally be more supple because it is actually thinner so more flexible anyway. For example: A 0.10mm line is more flexible than a 0.30mm line simply because it is so much thinner
Yes, but not when they're the same strength. To make a line thinner, the manufacturer generally has to sacrifice one or more of the other qualities. I know it becomes more complex when comparing a combination of different materials such as col-polymers or coated lines, but generally, the thinnest lines that retain their strength tend to be less pliable in all directions, i.e. less stretch and suppleness.

Manufacturing technology has fully exploited Nylon for fishing line, there is little improvement left to be had from the product. Nylon has its limitations: diameter, elasticity (stretch and suppleness) and strength is a triangle of properties - move towards one property and you move away from another.

Reverting back to the OP: Matrix Horizon is an excellent feeder line, it's got a bit more stretch than Invisitec, it's thinner but not as soft and nowhere near as smooth. Personally, I think the Matrix is generally a better feeder line, but it's not really similar to Invisitec. What was it you liked about using Invisitec?
 

richox12

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Yes, but not when they're the same strength.

Strength has nothing to do with it (linear or knot). It's the diameter, amount of material being compared. Vertically stand up 2cm of 0.20mm nylon line and compare, by 'brushing' across the top, with 2cm of 0.25mm nylon line - regardless of actual B/S. The 0.25mm will be stiffer.

Yes, you can get stiffer and/or more supple lines when comparing same diameter but the biggest difference is the diameter itself and whether the line is clear or dyed. Pigments affect nylon lines.

As always it's a minefield because we cannot compare apples with apples etc
 
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