Champs League

Northantslad

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Well, for all his talents and squad, Pep couldn't get City beyond the last 16. As for the other City representatives, well done for getting to the quarters, but not content with seeing off one of the best managers in their history, now imo they are cheating their fans in the process. They have gone down in estimations from a team that many a fan of many club said fair play to em, to a team that it seems a widely held opinion ceased trying to perform. Before they got Ranieri sacked, there would have been praise after praise on here after last night, yet nothing.....

In another thread 160642fishing suggested rightly imo, that clubs aren't actually that reliant on their fans for income, hence they can get treated badly. Leicester are trying to fight off relegation, but are now in the last 8 of the champions league? Many of us wondered at the start of the season that how would they compete on a number of fronts, personally I could never see the sense in putting a massive commitment into the champions league, better to try and maintain a European spot for next year in the league.

Yes, there will be a small number of fans who have had a great experience travelling around Europe and experiencing memories they will never forget and the full house at home last night seemed to be enjoying the moment, but come the end of the season, what will Leicester be remembered for and have to show for their 'efforts'? Winning the champions league-No, getting another season in Europe-No, relegation- may be, another tough premier league season-may be. All, for the sake of making a statement, when they were capable of much more and building on last year.
 

mick.e

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Originally posted by Northantslad

Well, for all his talents and squad, Pep couldn't get City beyond the last 16. As for the other City representatives, well done for getting to the quarters, but not content with seeing off one of the best managers in their history, now imo they are cheating their fans in the process. They have gone down in estimations from a team that many a fan of many club said fair play to em, to a team that it seems a widely held opinion ceased trying to perform. Before they got Ranieri sacked, there would have been praise after praise on here after last night, yet nothing.
In another thread 160642fishing suggested rightly imo, that clubs aren't actually that reliant on their fans for income, hence they can get treated badly. Leicester are trying to fight off relegation, but are now in the last 8 of the champions league? Many of us wondered at the start of the season that how would they compete on a number of fronts, personally I could never see the sense in putting a massive commitment into the champions league, better to try and maintain a European spot for next year in the league.

Yes, there will be a small number of fans who have had a great experience travelling around Europe and experiencing memories they will never forget and the full house at home last night seemed to be enjoying the moment, but come the end of the season, what will Leicester be remembered for and have to show for their 'efforts'? Winning the champions league-No, getting another season in Europe-No, relegation- may be, another tough premier league season-may be. All, for the sake of making a statement, when they were capable of much more and building on last year.

Mmm I think you are too influenced by the popular press.No one knows what caused the drop in form earlier this season, but I very much doubt it was a players mutiny as has been widely speculated. Whatever the real reason we were dropping like a stone with relegation looking a stone cold certainty. What were the owners supposed to do? You can't sack all the players and coaches and start again. Ultimately the manager carries the can. So a hard choice had to be made, keep the manager and get relegated or sack him and see if a new one could save the season. Remember it's a business and in business there is no room for sentiment. Everyone loved Ranari but love doesn't win matches and it's a result orientated business. The loss of revenue from global merchandising, loss of TV coverage and the drop in league position money were likely to be massive if relegated, so the hard decision was made. As a season ticket holder I was as sad as the rest of the fans when he was sacked but, with hindsight, the owners look to have been vindicated (fingers crossed) in their decision. The press will, doubtless, continue to not let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 

Northantslad

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Agree it looks a very good decision.
Although I don't need to be influenced by the press to see the overwhelming evidence there is for the 'drop in form' being one of choice.

The very fact they have played really well since and got on the run they have tells me enough. Don't think Ranieri all of a sudden became the wrong manager in the close season, unless something went on with one of the players and the rest failed to back him.

What did you put the 'drop in form' down to?
 

160642fishing

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'Ultimately the manager carries the can.',a little bit out of Micks post above and it's so true,having been a manager of a sales team in the past there comes a time when you have team meetings that you can't really say anything new and you begin the see the glazed look in the eyes of some of the team members,in any team you get a mix of people some are ambitious,some are complacent and some are just poor at their job,football teams can't be that different,how did Fergie and Wenger (when he was achieving) do it,they changed the squad on a regular basis making the longer term players no doubt thinking their place might be in jeopardy if they didn't perform,my opinion anyway for what it's worth.
 

mick.e

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Originally posted by Northantslad

Agree it looks a very good decision.
Although I don't need to be influenced by the press to see the overwhelming evidence there is for the 'drop in form' being one of choice.

The very fact they have played really well since and got on the run they have tells me enough. Don't think Ranieri all of a sudden became the wrong manager in the close season, unless something went on with one of the players and the rest failed to back him.

What did you put the 'drop in form' down to?

Think it was a combination of things.
We were doing well when Ranieri came so he left things pretty much alone.
In the close season we lost Kante and the incoming players failed to fill the gap. Ranieri believed we could not maintain the fast ,pressing from the front, style of game (We;d been lucky last year with few injuries but with the C/L and cup runs this year was always going to be much more intense) so he experimented with a more defensive/possession based formation that is popular with Italian teams, it didn't work, so he swapped players positions around a lot. Some players looked hopelessly lost when trying to play out of their usual position and the upshot was the forwards got no supply(hence Vardy and Mahrez's lack of goals) and the defense had no help from the weakened midfield.
I'm sure the constant changing of tactics confused and unsettled the players. There was also talk of conflicts with the manager and coaching staff, the coaches would take a training session and the manager would halt the session and get the players to practice another strategy, if true this would also demotivate and demoralize the team further.
At the end of the day no one outside the club can be sure what was going on but it was clear that something had to change and fast. I think the owners made the right decision, even though It hurt them and the fans to see him go.
 

Northantslad

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Nice one Mick, we clearly disagree, but both backing up our opinions with relevant observations, yours possibly having more substance too, as you watch them play and are nearer to the news that trickles out.

Do you think Ranieri 'tinkered' with things close season, reasoning that Kante allowed you to play a certain way and therefore then couldn't, or was the tinkering happening in the early season in an effort to combat that teams had found a way to play against you? I don't hold with the Kante sale having the biggest impact, they seem to be doing ok now without him?

Was Mahrez lack of goals due to the fact that he seemed to spend alot of time on the bench? Him not being in the starting 11 seemed to confuse me?

Labelled the tinkerman in the past granted, but as you point out, he changed little from Pearson's ground work, i just can't see any manager changing what was a history making formula for the sake of losing one key player? I do find it very easy for it to be suggested this was happening as grounds for sacking him though.
 

mick.e

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Originally posted by Northantslad

Nice one Mick, we clearly disagree, but both backing up our opinions with relevant observations, yours possibly having more substance too, as you watch them play and are nearer to the news that trickles out.

Do you think Ranieri 'tinkered' with things close season, reasoning that Kante allowed you to play a certain way and therefore then couldn't, or was the tinkering happening in the early season in an effort to combat that teams had found a way to play against you? I don't hold with the Kante sale having the biggest impact, they seem to be doing ok now without him?

Was Mahrez lack of goals due to the fact that he seemed to spend alot of time on the bench? Him not being in the starting 11 seemed to confuse me?

Labelled the tinkerman in the past granted, but as you point out, he changed little from Pearson's ground work, i just can't see any manager changing what was a history making formula for the sake of losing one key player? I do find it very easy for it to be suggested this was happening as grounds for sacking him though.

Agree that too much was made of losing Kante as you say we're playing well enough now. Nididi has come on leaps and bounds since the start of the season and looks a worthy replacement. I think the tinkering started in the close season and continued until he went. As I've said he wanted us to play with more possession (last year we rarely had more than 30% possession)and be better defensively, trouble is we don't really have the type of players that can play that way. He knew that we would have a lot more games this season with the C/L and possibly cup runs and we have a relativity small squad so rotation would be needed hence the tinkering to try and find a plan B. I think he confused the players to the point where they lost confidence in both themselves and the tactics. Of course I'm not saying that there was no conflicts in the dressing room, I would imagine when new contracts were handed out to some there was bound to be some resentment from those left out, I think that happens at most clubs, whether that impacted on the field, who knows, I just don't think there was an open revolt against the manager or a plot to get him ousted. More a general loss of confidence in their own abilities and the managers tactics/ team selection, possibly combined with some discord between manager and backroom/coaching staff. As I said a combination of things. Shakespeare seems to have re-ignited their confidence and they are playing like last season whether as Ranieri thought, that style of play is unsustainable over a busy season remains to be seen.
 

Northantslad

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Fair points mate.
Shakespeare certainly doing well to be fair on him, he could turn out to be a long term successor too. Will see if that is because he is a better manager than Ranieri is or because he is a refreshing alternative in the players eyes, a popular choice because Ranieri wasn't anymore.

The honeymoon period and backing of the players could be tested when the awkward decisions need to be made again.

Either way, rightly or wrongly, results have improved dramatically.
 

mick.e

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Originally posted by Northantslad

Fair points mate.
Shakespeare certainly doing well to be fair on him, he could turn out to be a long term successor too. Will see if that is because he is a better manager than Ranieri is or because he is a refreshing alternative in the players eyes, a popular choice because Ranieri wasn't anymore.

The honeymoon period and backing of the players could be tested when the awkward decisions need to be made again.

Either way, rightly or wrongly, results have improved dramatically.
Yes agree
 

Northantslad

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Originally posted by 160642fishing

'Ultimately the manager carries the can.',a little bit out of Micks post above and it's so true,having been a manager of a sales team in the past there comes a time when you have team meetings that you can't really say anything new and you begin the see the glazed look in the eyes of some of the team members,in any team you get a mix of people some are ambitious,some are complacent and some are just poor at their job,football teams can't be that different,how did Fergie and Wenger (when he was achieving) do it,they changed the squad on a regular basis making the longer term players no doubt thinking their place might be in jeopardy if they didn't perform,my opinion anyway for what it's worth.

Yep, wouldn't think there is much difference in terms of people management, re 'ones that are just poor at their jobs' it annoys the hell out of me how they are just allowed to get on with being poor.
One major difference though nowadays in football, is the players are possibly earning just as much as the manager and are certainly more powerful in numbers.
Talk now of players waiting on signing deals until they know who the manager is going to be, or not signing a deal because of who the manager is, hence I feel it would do football the world of good if clubs sided with managers once in a while. Imagine in other lines of work if we all had the luxury of picking and choosing a job according to who the manager is, sounds great and probably is................until people need managing, managers can only manage with management powers and the backing of authority, otherwise you have a core of prominent players running things, may be a majority of the players, all good when all is well, rudderless when strategy needs implementing from the top down imo.
 

160642fishing

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'otherwise you have a core of prominent players running things, may be a majority of the players, all good when all is well, rudderless when strategy needs implementing from the top down imo.'

And when it goes pear shaped who gets the sack,the manager of course.
 

Northantslad

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Yep, my point exactly.

Part of me thinks who would be a manager these days, then another part of me also thinks that they don't do too bad if they are sacked and paid off, however money aside you would still feel down about it and have the hassle of relocating yourself and your family when you have been sacked. Wouldn't care one bit about the latter issue if a player who chose not to perform was asked to go, but it must be annoying when your sacking has little to do with your own performance.

Fergie was mentioned earlier in the thread, when he first arrived, the first thing he did was tackle a culture of prominent players who enjoyed a bevvy or three, the club backed him. Throughout his tenure he was instrumental in the moving on of many big name players too and...the club backed him. Amidst outcry from many, including some players also who no doubt disagreed with some of these, but professionally they kept working and respected the fact that no-one is bigger than the club. Admittedly Fergies record was in his favour, Ranieris previous history of tinkering may have caught up with him, a history that a premier league trophy couldn't cancel out, I just don't know.
 

Northantslad

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Juventus 2-0 up and well on their way. Italians looking strong again, be a while before we the English clubs can muscle in again on the Spanish and Italian domination of the European Cup. As much as I dislike saying it, I'm thinking that those years we had 1,2 and sometimes 3 teams in the latter stages was due to the lack of Italian teams presence after their domestic punishments and subsequent rebuilds.
 
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