Carp above 8lbs

Maesknoll

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Genuine question, do you think commercial match anglers would be happy with lakes if they had no carp but a similarly sized population of say good sized tench, bream and Perch or maybe chub and barbel? As in is the issue that it's got to be carp for carps sake or is that those species get harder to catch as they get bigger?
Wouldn’t matter if it was match anglers or pleasure anglers, how much would you pay for your peg fee or day ticket to fish that venue, because, to guarantee good fishing it would be a lot more than an equivalent fishery stocked with carp.

Carp can live 40 years+, tench are probably the next longest lived. Carp are very hardy, they survive being repeatedly caught, being kept in nets, are easy to breed if the fishery has a stock pond and are relatively inexpensive to buy in their thousands when small. Carp survive poor water conditions better than many silvers. The biggest money spinner for commercials is the ‘carp anglers*’ who turn up, feed the fish and often fail to catch much.

Silvers - virtually the opposite of all the above.

* I know some proper Carp Anglers, but I’m sure most will understand the instant carper type I mean in the context of the above.
 

Silverfisher

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Wouldn’t matter if it was match anglers or pleasure anglers, how much would you pay for your peg fee or day ticket to fish that venue, because, to guarantee good fishing it would be a lot more than an equivalent fishery stocked with carp.

Carp can live 40 years+, tench are probably the next longest lived. Carp are very hardy, they survive being repeatedly caught, being kept in nets, are easy to breed if the fishery has a stock pond and are relatively inexpensive to buy in their thousands when small. Carp survive poor water conditions better than many silvers. The biggest money spinner for commercials is the ‘carp anglers*’ who turn up, feed the fish and often fail to catch much.

Silvers - virtually the opposite of all the above.

* I know some proper Carp Anglers, but I’m sure most will understand the instant carper type I mean in the context of the above.
Oh yeah I understand the difference in keeping the different species and how it wouldn’t be practical in reality. Was more just wondering if the anglers themselves would be bothered whether the fish were carp or any big ish fish. Like I would have thought virtually anyone would rather catch say 10 5lb tench and 5 2lb Perch than 10 6lb carp for example.
 

Maesknoll

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Oh yeah I understand the difference in keeping the different species and how it wouldn’t be practical in reality. Was more just wondering if the anglers themselves would be bothered whether the fish were carp or any big ish fish. Like I would have thought virtually anyone would rather catch say 10 5lb tench and 5 2lb Perch than 10 6lb carp for example.
I don’t care if I catch 2lb of Ruffe to win a match, or 200lb of carp, it’s not the weight that matters - although, I will admit I am not a fan of fish race venues with huge weights, there is one popular venue on our open circuit I only fish in winter.
 

Total

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Wouldn’t matter if it was match anglers or pleasure anglers, how much would you pay for your peg fee or day ticket to fish that venue, because, to guarantee good fishing it would be a lot more than an equivalent fishery stocked with carp.

Carp can live 40 years+, tench are probably the next longest lived. Carp are very hardy, they survive being repeatedly caught, being kept in nets, are easy to breed if the fishery has a stock pond and are relatively inexpensive to buy in their thousands when small. Carp survive poor water conditions better than many silvers. The biggest money spinner for commercials is the ‘carp anglers*’ who turn up, feed the fish and often fail to catch much.

Silvers - virtually the opposite of all the above.

* I know some proper Carp Anglers, but I’m sure most will understand the instant carper type I mean in the context of the above.
As you mentioned above......Silvers don't like constant pressure in a match situation....Seen many a silver venue spoiled and take years to recover....
 

Silverfisher

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I don’t care if I catch 2lb of Ruffe to win a match, or 200lb of carp, it’s not the weight that matters
I think it does matter to a lot from what we are led to believe. For everyone who just fishes to win or fishes to appreciate fish and their surroundings there are apparently those that only like big fish so just intrigued as to whether the species of said big fish really matters to them 🤔
 

Maesknoll

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I think it does matter to a lot from what we are led to believe. For everyone who just fishes to win or fishes to appreciate fish and their surroundings there are apparently those that only like big fish so just intrigued as to whether the species of said big fish really matters to them 🤔
Not sure I understand your point, match anglers want a days fishing and a few bites, as most anglers do, but at the end of the day, you’re there to win, so if that is with one fish or 50, of whatever species, that’s is the aim satisfied.
 

Silverfisher

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Not sure I understand your point, match anglers want a days fishing and a few bites, as most anglers do, but at the end of the day, you’re there to win, so if that is with one fish or 50, of whatever species, that’s is the aim
If that were wholly the case then carp match fishing would have likely never came about so I assume there is a desire amongst a fair proportion of the Stillwater match community to catch predominantly big fish? It comes back to the point people make when they say silvers lakes are often not fished much due to demand for carp lakes so presumably that is solely a size of fish thing. But I assume that would be big fish in general and wouldn’t necessarily have to be carp if in a hypothetical world you could stock other species to the same sizes and numbers.
 

Maesknoll

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If that were wholly the case then carp match fishing would have likely never came about so I assume there is a desire amongst a fair proportion of the Stillwater match community to catch predominantly big fish? It comes back to the point people make when they say silvers lakes are often not fished much due to demand for carp lakes so presumably that is solely a size of fish thing. But I assume that would be big fish in general and wouldn’t necessarily have to be carp if in a hypothetical world you could stock other species to the same sizes and numbers.
Carp match fishing came about, not because of the size, but because of the reasons given, you can dig a lake, fill it with water, stock it with (stockie) carp and instant fishery at least cost.

The Stillwater match fishing community is you call it, covers many different aspect, some are aficionados of F1 fishing, some like the newer fisheries or those that can rotate the stock to keep high levels of smaller fish, some like venues that are well established and hold big fish. But I guarantee that every serious match angler is pleased to win, whether that be with 50 F1’s or stockie carp for 25lb, or 6 carp for 90 lb..
 

Silverfisher

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Carp match fishing came about, not because of the size, but because of the reasons given, you can dig a lake, fill it with water, stock it with (stockie) carp and instant fishery at least cost.

The Stillwater match fishing community is you call it, covers many different aspect, some are aficionados of F1 fishing, some like the newer fisheries or those that can rotate the stock to keep high levels of smaller fish, some like venues that are well established and hold big fish. But I guarantee that every serious match angler is pleased to win, whether that be with 50 F1’s or stockie carp for 25lb, or 6 carp for 90 lb..
Makes sense 👍🏻

Will be interesting if in time we see things diversify back to more varied fisheries again as time goes on. It wouldn’t surprise me if more I suppose authentic venues increased in popularity again compared to the instant more artificial venues as I think in general in life people are more into their realism and authenticity experiences again at the moment.

Or I could be well over thinking the parallels of society and fishing, been a long day 😅
 

Maesknoll

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Makes sense 👍🏻

Will be interesting if in time we see things diversify back to more varied fisheries again as time goes on. It wouldn’t surprise me if more I suppose authentic venues increased in popularity again compared to the instant more artificial venues as I think in general in life people are more into their realism and authenticity experiences again at the moment.

Or I could be well over thinking the parallels of society and fishing, been a long day 😅

Most fisheries are already mixed, if you want a days silver fishing it’s available, especially in winter when the carp ball up and become almost dormant. I appreciate sometimes in the warmer months, if the carp gatecrash the party, they just push the silvers out, but that doesn’t detract from the great silvers sport to be had on many commercials.

You might be over thinking it with match anglers, they just want to win, no doubt match anglers select their venues, I’m not a huge fan of snake lakes, preferring open water, but if it’s a carp match or a silvers match, then I’m happy to be fishing for whatever will win it - and on many occasions, that’s a combination of both carp and silvers. Other match anglers specialise in snake lakes, some like feeder matches, some don’t fish commercials, some fish commercials exclusively, I think the diversity is already well set in and I don’t see that changing.

The concern for me, is hearing that more venues are ditching matches in favour of ‘carp anglers’ as they can charge more and sometimes sell the same peg twice in a day, I appreciate a commercial fishery is a business, but that will only leave match anglers with less choice.
 

RedhillPhil

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When I was a kid, carp were special - they weren't really artificially stocked anywhere much and catching one was a real treat. Nowadays I look at the commercials near me, in case the rivers are badly flooded, and they just seem to be carp carp carp, match sized, double sized and monster sized - I wanna catch tench and rudd
You're singing my song..
 

dave brittain 1

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Where I live I'm spoiled I can catch bream at Chard reservoir, Chub on the river Tone and roach on the River Parrett. If I want Tench I can go to the Taunton and Bridgewater Canal. If I want Carp I can o to Viaduct, Sedges and a host of commercials.

However and this is the point many are missing, if I want a guaranteed days silvers fishing, winter or summer, where I can park in a car park where I know my car won't be broken into, where there's an on-site tackle shop and toilets I'll go to the same commercials because over the years the skimmers and roach have benefitted on the fishmeal based pellet feeds introduced by both match and carp anglers.

20-30lbs of roach - Commercial
30-40lbs of skimmers - Commercial

Ok in summer you will hook carp but with a sensible compromise approach you will still land them. pre commercial days I was match secretary for my local club we ran 40 peg matches most weeks with April opens with a fee to go to the Juniors, Friday night summer series and around 8 club matches a year all well attended with many being sell outs. 6 lbs was the target weight to win most matches with 5lbs being enough to frame.

This was a great lake however following EA advice on stocking levels it didn't matter what we did, it simply wouldn't take the pressure. Putting a few carp in helped create a bit more activity but when they grew and they grew quickly we were advised to take them out which is what the club did. What happened the weights went down and the members still weren't happy so a few years later we put some more back in. They still weren't happy :unsure:

Although many are happy to knock commercials what is happened is the lack of pressure on natural venues has reduced significantly and as a result of this they have benefitted enormously with the exception of predation however for those willing to fish natural venues, many are fishing better than they ever did.

Now ask how many people are willing to endure the walks, cut out a peg etc. People want their cake and to eat it. Fishing has never been better than it is as there are so many options. Why would a fishery owner have a dedicated silvers lake when he knows that his lakes are full of silvers and all the angler has to do is tailor his approach accordingly to catch them? Sometimes you just can't win.
 

smiffy

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If that were wholly the case then carp match fishing would have likely never came about so I assume there is a desire amongst a fair proportion of the Stillwater match community to catch predominantly big fish? It comes back to the point people make when they say silvers lakes are often not fished much due to demand for carp lakes so presumably that is solely a size of fish thing. But I assume that would be big fish in general and wouldn’t necessarily have to be carp if in a hypothetical world you could stock other species to the same sizes and numbers.
Early commercials were often mixed fisheries. Due to their popularity venues would get fully booked. What happened is the place would completely switch off. Anglers would moan,like they do😉, and owners would have to overstock to please the angler. Obvious answer is Carp for all the above reasons aswell as their tolerance for poorly oxygenated water.
All the arguments for the fragility of Silver fish are only relevant when a fishery is overstocked. In a normal density and good water quality they are as hardy as any other fish. With the exception,maybe, of standing up to repeated capture. I know many waters from years gone by that stood up to lots of pressure without any mishaps. Often pressure would attract fish👍
 

Silverfisher

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what is happened is the lack of pressure on natural venues has reduced significantly and as a result of this they have benefitted enormously with the exception of predation however for those willing to fish natural venues, many are fishing better than they ever did.
That's a good point. I haven't been around long enough to directly know how natural venues fished in the past but they do seem to be fishing very well at the moment and whilst I'm told they aren't necessarily where they were many decades ago apparently a lot have been better in the last say 5 years than they have been at any time in the last 20-30 years.

All the arguments for the fragility of Silver fish are only relevant when a fishery is overstocked. In a normal density and good water quality they are as hardy as any other fish. With the exception,maybe, of standing up to repeated capture. I know many waters from years gone by that stood up to lots of pressure without any mishaps. Often pressure would attract fish👍
That was my understanding as well. The science would suggest that provided there is enough food, oxygen and space then there's no reason dug lakes can't hold the big number of silvers that some rivers and natural lakes do and there are plenty lakes where that is the case, although admittedly they aren't typically as heavily match fished.


 

The Landlord

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When I was a kid, carp were special - they weren't really artificially stocked anywhere much and catching one was a real treat. Nowadays I look at the commercials near me, in case the rivers are badly flooded, and they just seem to be carp carp carp, match sized, double sized and monster sized - I wanna catch tench and rudd
I remember those days. Catching a carp was a rarity. On the match lakes, only a couple of pegs held carp & whoever drew them would fill the first two places. Everybody else was fishing for the minor prizes. You'd catch the odd carp on club ponds but it was mainly sivers & tench. When I got back into fishing a couple of years ago, the change was astounding & it's been a complete learning process all over again.
 

Silverfisher

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I remember those days. Catching a carp was a rarity. On the match lakes, only a couple of pegs held carp & whoever drew them would fill the first two places. Everybody else was fishing for the minor prizes. You'd catch the odd carp on club ponds but it was mainly sivers & tench. When I got back into fishing a couple of years ago, the change was astounding & it's been a complete learning process all over again.
A few places I fish or have fished are still like that. If fishing for silvers on them you're very unlikely to hook more than a couple carp in a day and will often go a couple sessions without hooking one. Even when targeting them getting half a dozen out is a good result. They simply have a more natural big fish to small fish biomass. I remember fishing my first commercial as a kid about 3 years into my fishing career and was astounded when I was suddenly catching carp with ease. Up until that point carp were some mysterious fish that only experienced adults could catch for me!
 

RMNDIL

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That's a good point. I haven't been around long enough to directly know how natural venues fished in the past but they do seem to be fishing very well at the moment and whilst I'm told they aren't necessarily where they were many decades ago apparently a lot have been better in the last say 5 years than they have been at any time in the last 20-30 years.
It is MUCH better now everywhere that I know of. And has, mostly, improved further.

Back in the 80's if you had 15lb on Medley you were thinking you had a very, very good chance of winning. Now 15lb might not even win a section on a normal/good day. Weights of 10lb+ were rare, now they are all over the place and you could be last in section with 10lb.

In the 85 national on the Thames I was on the Medley section and had 7lb+ (3 chub and several perch). I 'won' Medley (72 pegs back then) and was 2nd in the 98 peg 'section' as someone had a 10lb carp from the channel. Carp were simply unheard of !!
 

Silverfisher

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It is MUCH better now everywhere that I know of. And has, mostly, improved further.

Back in the 80's if you had 15lb on Medley you were thinking you had a very, very good chance of winning. Now 15lb might not even win a section on a normal/good day. Weights of 10lb+ were rare, now they are all over the place and you could be last in section with 10lb.

In the 85 national on the Thames I was on the Medley section and had 7lb+ (3 chub and several perch). I 'won' Medley (72 pegs back then) and was 2nd in the 98 peg 'section' as someone had a 10lb carp from the channel. Carp were simply unheard of !!
Yeah that tallies with what I've been told. My grandad talks about how back in the 60s/70s he could fill a keepnet almost every time almost everywhere at good times of year yet by the 80/90s it was hard work to get even a half decent bag unless things lined up for you which was part of the reason he drifted to sea and fly fishing at the time before returning to coarse fishing when I started up. But like you say these days if you're on a good peg on a good stretch in decent conditions you can comfortably do double figures more often than not with a real chance of a big bag.

Medleys a good example like you say. I reckon this season I'd have done say 10 to 20 pound bags on 6 out of the 8 proper sessions I fished on it and whilst I struggled a bit on it last season (only maybe doing double figures when I found big perch or bream) in the previous 3 seasons on it before that I'm not sure I'd have had more than a single bag under 10 pound each season. Sandford is pretty consistent as well. I'd say I probably average a double figure bag every other proper session there, well at least I did this season and I'd say it was about the same when I last consistently fished it a few years back.
 
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