This ere knocking the ball about really deep in your own half

Northantslad

'Any indications?
Site Supporter
Joined
Aug 2, 2012
Messages
4,811
I am thinking stroking the ball about on your own six yard box, is to achieve two things:
Combat a high press.
Draw the opposition out.

Since it became fashionable to play like this (glad to see some teams don't do it) I have been wondering how long it would take to filter down to lower leagues and also junior football.

Got my answer in the last couple of weeks. Team the lad was playing against did it and conceded several goals because of doing it. Cheltenham tried it at the weekend and gave a goal away. This is hardly playing the percentages game is it? Don't pass across your own box, get the ball wide and not inside doesn't half reduce the chances of conceding possession or worse a goal.

Ridiculous strategy imo.
 

Nicky Dodds

Regular member
Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Messages
647
I failed the old FA coaching course first time round due too a conflict of opinions between me and the instructor on this very subject. He was advocating the very same style you describe during the group excercise demonstrations. I vocally called him out on it and in three consecutive demos proved him wrong. Said instructor put six 'footballing parents' through the course despite them never having kicked a ball in their lives so their ability to demonstrate would see them fail outright. He cited my failure down to the old 'failure to communicate ' chestnut.
Fair enough, the top half dozen teams in the premiership may get away with doing it but even they can be pressed into mistakes. I would never teach that especially to juniors who have very varied skill levels some of which are only there because their parents see it as some sort of crèche facility.
It's great to watch teams do it but even the elite can't do it all the time.
 

DavC1h

Regular member
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
188
I get what you are both saying and would agree that technically competent players are needed to carry it off, I also agree that even the best can get caught out by a team with a good "high press"
However, it has got to be better than the alternative where the goalie just hoofs it straight up the middle every time. IMO juniors should be encouraged to play/ pass the ball out of defence as this should nurture good technical skills for the future.

The secret is knowing when to play it out or hoof it.:):):)
 

Northantslad

'Any indications?
Site Supporter
Joined
Aug 2, 2012
Messages
4,811
I failed the old FA coaching course first time round due too a conflict of opinions between me and the instructor on this very subject. He was advocating the very same style you describe during the group excercise demonstrations. I vocally called him out on it and in three consecutive demos proved him wrong. Said instructor put six 'footballing parents' through the course despite them never having kicked a ball in their lives so their ability to demonstrate would see them fail outright. He cited my failure down to the old 'failure to communicate ' chestnut.
Fair enough, the top half dozen teams in the premiership may get away with doing it but even they can be pressed into mistakes. I would never teach that especially to juniors who have very varied skill levels some of which are only there because their parents see it as some sort of crèche facility.
It's great to watch teams do it but even the elite can't do it all the time.
Post of the year, you nailed it there imo.
 

Northantslad

'Any indications?
Site Supporter
Joined
Aug 2, 2012
Messages
4,811
Big difference between just lumping it forwards and 'playing' with the ball around your own six yard box, there is a middle ground and that imo is to play the percentage football. Comes down to a basic rule for me; the opposition objective is to get the ball in your goal, so playing in a way that moves the ball away from your own goal and away from/not in the usual areas that goals are conceded from is logical.

Watched my lad right from reception age group through to present and those formative stages it quickly became clear to me that at least 50% of goals conceded were avoidable by:

Not passing the ball across your own box
Ensuring goal kicks didn't go straight to an opposition player

I used the word formative above and it baffles me that the FA class reception and up to around under 12 as 'development'. It is this that 'makes' some coaches use/have to use training and the team as a drop in centre for 6 years and actually encourage the crèche mentality @Nicky Dodds refers to. I have also seen from a good many parent- drop them off, go and sit in the coffee shop and then pick them up-no interest in football, the team or being on hand to help nurture the team ethos in their son/daughter or be their to re-enforce discipline if needed or worse if they get injured. Interesting to me though, that the best teams I have seen my lads teams face became competitive and selective in their choice of players after about 2/3 years after reception level, the coach/s clearly getting their badge, then doing things their way (the right way imo), rather than adopting what they get told to do.

The crux of all of this is- when should junior football (at what age group) become competitive? I.E when do you have your team take to the field looking to win? by putting players in their strongest positions (some juniors demonstrate a strong specific position ability at 7/8)- rather than trying to make sure every one gets a go at every position and making that many changes mid game to achieve it that the players just get confused and any chance of fluidity and keeping a foot hold in the game disappears. On that theme, the better teams have also taught their team, that playing in defence and also goalkeeper are just as important positions (and rewarded thus rather than just the best player who always knocks the goals in every week). The poorer quality teams still have players up to age 10 who see goalkeeping and defending as the short straw. Another one is substitutions, do them when needed with a hint of fair rotation but as the game dictates? Or do them regardless, equally timed game time? When is it ok to advise a parent (when they return from the gym or the coffee shop) that 'look' I am afraid your son/daughter just isn't going to be a footballer and there is no place for them in the team anymore. By footballer I mean a Saturday or sunday local league player when they are 18 or so. Teams I have seen cope with this particular conundrum well, are ones that have a development and inclusion team that feeds the team that places importance on winning and thus does everything it can before and during a game to try and win.

You have probably gathered that I am quite competitive, yes I am, but in terms of the above paragraph, i would say that a good many juniors are too and just getting battered every week by teams that have got it 'right' does little for their enjoyment I would say.
 

DavC1h

Regular member
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
188
Northants, like you I took and watched, along with his mother, my lad from the age of 6 right through to 18. Every Sat and Sun and then some Fridays and Tuesdays at development centres and academies. Never missed a game unless absolutely unavoidable.
I 100% agree with you that the lack of competitiveness does not help the young players.
After starting with the local team he then got asked to join a team that was known as being the best in the area, a coach that drilled them with the "winner" mentality but they were also learnt how to play football ie. pass and move. Sometimes it was brutal for that age but it learnt them lessons and skills that stood them in good stead right through to his last year in U18s. Winning county cups and many other leagues and tournaments.
Too often they would play teams that had good players but were unsuccessful because they did not have the same desire to win.
IMHO juniors should be playing competitive football from 8 onwards.
 

Northantslad

'Any indications?
Site Supporter
Joined
Aug 2, 2012
Messages
4,811
;)

4 goals and 3 of them due to it, ridiculous strategy imo still.
 

Dusty Rhodes

Regular member
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Messages
686
;)

4 goals and 3 of them due to it, ridiculous strategy imo still.
I don’t think the De Ligt mistake can be accused of overplaying from the back, it was a simple pass back to a centre half that was miscontrolled.
Can’t expect centre halves to just launch the ball upfield at every opportunity.
 

Northantslad

'Any indications?
Site Supporter
Joined
Aug 2, 2012
Messages
4,811
A pass 'back'.
I don't expect them to just launch it, there are other options between one end of the scale of play it out and the other end of the scale of hoof it up.
 

Blanks

Regular member
Site Supporter
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
1,658
I would imagine the drawing board is completly worn out by now.:)
 

Northantslad

'Any indications?
Site Supporter
Joined
Aug 2, 2012
Messages
4,811
I think Gareth got a new one blanks when he started, but I do expect his not to wear out as quick as some of the others. He has achieved a lot more good than bad. Just so frustrated with this particular tactic.

Percentages game for me. If you say that 99% of goals are conceded from in and around your own box then minimising the time the ball spends in that area lowers the risk of conceding, If a player sticks one in the top corner and you have to say fantastic goal, then so be it, but to concede goals of your own making is hard to take, especially when the goals are Sunday league stuff. If the tactic was a guarantee of leading to something up the other end then great, but there is a lot of football to be played between your own third and the oppositions third, hence I can't see the worth of input when compared with end result.

If as a full back or centre half you are being ran into the corner and pursued by an attacker, there is no shame in knocking it out for a throw. Analysing that particular situation, I would be much happier defending a throw with players marked, than getting caught out and being short in the box once the attacker has dispossessed you.
 

Northantslad

'Any indications?
Site Supporter
Joined
Aug 2, 2012
Messages
4,811
Been fashionable for around a year now. People feel its effective still or?
Should we just let the only three teams that can do it without messing up, carry on and the rest drop it? Only teams I see do it without it costing them, but without watching every games highlights in the world admittedly, at club or international level-Liverpool, City and Barca.
 

160642fishing

Regular member
Site Supporter
Joined
Aug 12, 2010
Messages
3,878
It cost Man City a goal at Norwich today,keeper stroked it to a defender in the box,he wasn't alert enough to know he had a man on in no time,result, City lost !.
 

Dusty Rhodes

Regular member
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Messages
686
I’m not sure playing out from the back deserves all the stick it gets.
Granted when it goes wrong fingers are bound to be pointed however has anyone ever provided statistics for how many goals have been scored as a result of playing out from the back?
It’s all well and good saying they should be old school and good the ball upfield but how many goals do teams concede doing this only for the next attack to result in a goal?
 

Northantslad

'Any indications?
Site Supporter
Joined
Aug 2, 2012
Messages
4,811
I get it @Dusty Rhodes but if it goes wrong it tends to be costly. Percentages game? Lose or win the ball in midfield then there is a more significant amount of play to pass by before it can be classed as a goal scoring move/passage of play. Would like to know that stats yes, all I do know is that when you watch the goals highlights across the leagues, it does seem quite a regular occurrence.

Can't help feeling and just like teams playing one up top instead of a traditional two, its just a fashion. On that too I reckon their are plenty of careers/opportunities being blighted by this- Sanchez, quite close to home.

If it works great, then happy to call it an effective strategy, if there is no effective outcome, then its a fashion.

In place to combat a press they say, seems to me it encourages a press. What came first, the press or the keep ball in your penalty area situation.
 

Dusty Rhodes

Regular member
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Messages
686
I get it @Dusty Rhodes but if it goes wrong it tends to be costly. Percentages game? Lose or win the ball in midfield then there is a more significant amount of play to pass by before it can be classed as a goal scoring move/passage of play. Would like to know that stats yes, all I do know is that when you watch the goals highlights across the leagues, it does seem quite a regular occurrence.

Can't help feeling and just like teams playing one up top instead of a traditional two, its just a fashion. On that too I reckon their are plenty of careers/opportunities being blighted by this- Sanchez, quite close to home.

If it works great, then happy to call it an effective strategy, if there is no effective outcome, then its a fashion.

In place to combat a press they say, seems to me it encourages a press. What came first, the press or the keep ball in your penalty area situation.
Ones just happened in the Watford game as well!
 

Top