Knotless knot hook problem

bobbywins22

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Hi guys - forward thanx for any help with this - i've been tieing my own hair rigged pellet band hook lengths using guru lwg hooks in 18's and 20's with guru flourocarbon line - whats been happening now and again when i'm feeder fishing and on a local venue yesterday where the stamp of carp are between 1 - 3lb is that when my hook length snapped it was at at the point where the line is threaded through the eye of the hook - when i stepped up to 0.14 from 0.12 it happened again - i then changed to a spade end hooklength using 0.12 and it was all fine and landed all my fish - i can only assume that the weakpoint is somewhere in the eye where the line gets passed through twice - i allways thought there was only one way to tie a knotless not and there would be no weakpoint - has anyone else experienced this problem or do you think i should only use flourocarbon hooklengths on the pole ?
 

Ken the Pacman

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The knotless knot is not a very strong knot to begin with even less so with flourocarbon and is better suited to braided lines of much higher breaking strains as used by big carp anglers.
When that knot first became popular years ago they brought out seamless eyed hooks because it was thought the eye was causing breakages at that point but further research and testing proved that the knot was around 40% weaker than a conventional eyed or spade end knot.....Stick to braid which has a linear braking strain 20lbs plus and you will not see a problem,use nylon less than 020mm diameter and you will notice, use florocarbon and you will notice a lot although using a rear facing eye helps it never cures the issue.
 

jay67

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are you wrapping it the right way around the hook ?
 

Dave

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I had the same problem and put it down to the pressure on the line where it passes through the eye to second time.
As the line is pulled taught, with a fish on, the line is forced at an angle against a straight eye.
It doesn't happen as much with bent eyes, hence my theory.
 

Paul22

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Just to check........
The hair is coming from the back of the hook?
The line is coming from the front of the hook ?
Plenty of wind around the hook 8 to 12 ish ?
Tighten up the not after moisture has been applied?

Check the eye of the hook using a magnifying glass make sure it’s not miss shaped or has any sharp bits.
Is the line ok ? Check it’s ok by snapping it rotten line snaps easily.

Check how you store them is damage coming from storage ?

Just trying to help
 

Paul22

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I had the same problem and put it down to the pressure on the line where it passes through the eye to second time.
As the line is pulled taught, with a fish on, the line is forced at an angle against a straight eye.
It doesn't happen as much with bent eyes, hence my theory.
Never had this happen Dave ! But I do get your point ...... the drennan hair rigger hooks have a turned back eye as do some of the Preston hooks
These could be worth a go 👍
 

1kingy

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Yes m8 - to the bend
I was told to always wrap towards you as the line can catch on the eye if you wrap away from yourself, and that can cause a line snap?? Always done it like this and not had any problems 👍
 

Dave

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The knotless knot has always been wrapped from the eye down to the bend, about 8 to 12 turns, and then thread the line through the eye from the back to the front
 

grey

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As Ken TP says, the knotless isn't the best knot when using fluoro, so if you need to use it, you must ensure you achieve the knot's maximum strength (which is about 85%).

It could be that your knot is slipping, so try an extra turn or two. Also, fluoro really doesn't like being bent into position without lubrication, so pay extra attention to wetting the knot as it is being tied and whilst wet, tighten the knot by slowly applying and increasing pressure to the newly tied rig. This will help the knot bed in without cracking the fluoro.

Personally, unless there's a very specific reason to use fluoro, I'd opt for nylon, it's more robust and far less likely to fail when bagging up.
 

Peter

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Short lengths of low diameter fluro can't take the shock associated with using a method feeder IMO and I really can't see any point in using it. The very nature of the bites, with the fish bolting as it feels the resistance/hook requires something more robust than fluro. Stick to mono.
 

bobbywins22

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Thanx guys for your help - saw this reply on an older thread -
The first turn, and direction of subsequent whipping turns, must be AWAY from or OPPOSITE the gap in the eye. Otherwise the line can get in and undo the knot.

Food for thought then
 

rudd

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Knotless knot has one use - hair rigging.
Tie loop, incorporate band, spike etc on loop when tying.
Put on bait to be used.
Measure hair to requried distance along back of hook.
Line through back of hook with hook in left hand with point below shank.
The cut of loop should be away from you.
Bring line towards you and make first whip up and over and reapetfive times.
Keep going if using standard hair rig 10 to 12 times until whipping is level or just under point on shank opposite hook point.
At turn 5 or 6 lift hair and make last 5 or 6 whips along shank only if tying an offset hair which makes a more aggressive angle ( good for banded chum mixer).
After lasr whip is made bring line around hook in a sort of s shape keeping tight and thread through back of eye to come out of front.
Add and tubing such as silicon or heat shrink at this point.
Tie hooklength to swivel etc. or fig of eight knot.
Thread tubing over hook into position, heat over sream if heat shrink.

Like stated already, its only use is for hair rigging.
There are other hair rigging alt out there.
 

gobby1

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Have to disagree that the knotless knot is only for hair rigging, most of my shallow fishing is done using it with a QM1. Or indeed any form of self hooking rig with the tag cut right back. Big advantage of the knotless knot is the aggressive angle it makes the hook take hanging from the line. I do agree you need to use a bent back eyed hook though.
 

rudd

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Have to disagree that the knotless knot is only for hair rigging, most of my shallow fishing is done using it with a QM1. Or indeed any form of self hooking rig with the tag cut right back. Big advantage of the knotless knot is the aggressive angle it makes the hook take hanging from the line. I do agree you need to use a bent back eyed hook though.
QM1 was designed for hair rigging.
A simple snell knot would have the effect you are seeking whilst being stronger.
 

richox12

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The knotless knot is not a very strong knot to begin with even less so with flourocarbon and is better suited to braided lines of much higher breaking strains as used by big carp anglers.
When that knot first became popular years ago they brought out seamless eyed hooks because it was thought the eye was causing breakages at that point but further research and testing proved that the knot was around 40% weaker than a conventional eyed or spade end knot.....Stick to braid which has a linear braking strain 20lbs plus and you will not see a problem,use nylon less than 020mm diameter and you will notice, use florocarbon and you will notice a lot although using a rear facing eye helps it never cures the issue.
Exactly that.
 

Anglingman

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my guess is that is more likely the use of flurocarbon rather than mono causing the issue.

I have used a knotless knot for >10years and don't recall ever having this issue. Typically I tie with Guru N gauge, prior to that it was Silstar
 
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