| Advice on pike culling |
| beebs | I understand if people are a bit peed off if they think this subject has been covered to death before, but I came across three people from my angling club whilst fishing on my local gravel pit last night who were throwing out lures for pike with the intention of killing them. My personal opinion is that this is wrong and self defeating in the long term, since my feelings are that nature will find its own balance between prey and predator. I've read other people's views on this and I am not prepared to partake in the killing of healthy fish. What I am after is advice on an alternative solution, since re-education doesn't seem to be an option. I am going to write to the secretary of the angling club stating my disagreeement, but I would like to offer an alternative to killing. Maybe a 'pike special' fish-in with the help of the Environment Agency with a view to relocating the fish elsewhere. Does anybody else out there have any suggestions? The bizarre thing is, that on the back of my temporary permit is a rule stating that all fish caught in the society's waters MUST be returned alive. All help and advice would be greatly appreciated, since I would love to be able to fish for pike on my local lake and I get the feeling that they want to get rid of them altogether.  |
| MALC | Hi Beebs, quote:
I came across three people from my angling club whilst fishing on my local gravel pit last night who were throwing out lures for pike with the intention of killing them.
quote:
The bizarre thing is, that on the back of my temporary permit is a rule stating that all fish caught in the society's waters MUST be returned alive.
With the above rule already being in place your best course of action is to either get the guy's names. Which being a member you will proberly find a rule that states that you can ask to see anyone else's permit. Or failing that take down their car registration number. Then pass on all the information to the club secretary who should then act accordingly and expell the rule breakers. Your idea of a Pike fish-in is a good one but in my experience (which is limited) it's hard to find anyone who want's Pike plus they are not very good at being transported as they are such a delicate fish. Malc Fish with Friends @ MaggotDrowning.com and take £s from Dirk  |
| esox.20 | Firstly thank you for your caring attitude. If the club rules state no fish to be killed or removed then report them asap. As to reasons why they should not be killed/removed... The balance of a fishery would be upset by indiscriminate removeal of pike for example if a water contains and can support say 3 20lb pike and 6 15lb pike (150lb total) the killing of the above would allow the same total weight of smaller pike to thrive. As these would be small and growing the need for food is greater than need for the big pike. So more fish will be consumed as food. So damaging further the other species. The large pike will and do predate on their smaller cousins so there removal once again allows an explosion of smaller pike. I have witnessed first hand the damage done by the unrestricted killing of pike and had to give up fishing that particular lake. Best wishes in seeing justice done John chill out go fishing |
| Ziptrev | beebs, I sympathise! I am finding the same attitudes up here, much to my disgust. It.s not as though Pike were a new pressure, like the cormorant explosion, as you say they are part of the natural chain and have always been with us. However, I agree with MALC, who wants them! I fish some lakes close to the Trent and where I know that the Pike will be persecuted, I take them from the lake and put them in the Trent. Even with this, I have been told that 'We dont want them in the river'! No solution , just support I'm afraid and don't be deterred from writing as you say and please let us know the reply. Cheers Trev Ziptrev Shouldn't happen to a DOG! |
| beebs | I spoke to two people initially and kind of got the impression that they had the club's blessing, or were 'more senior' members, since they were out in a rowing boat, raking swims and genuinely seem knowledgeable about the water. Another chap turned up later on, as I was finishing up, with a rod set up with a plug on it and asked me "Are you taking them all out of here?" which I took to mean "Are you killing the pike as well?". The only other coarse fisherman on the lake was me, and I was picking up plenty of bites and catching roach and perch, so I think the belief that the pike are harming the other fish stocks is misguided. I have drafted a letter to the secretary of the fishing club to get his personal and official views on the matter. I have offered my help in any other way but killing and have told him any pike I catch will be returned alive. I thought the notion of killing pike had gone away with better education, but the men I came across last night didn't appear stupid, just set in their opinions that to ensure a better head of roach and rudd, the pike have to be killed. My opinion is, that leaving the pike there would mean a better quality roach and rudd population, the pike taking the dead, ill and dying fish with the healthier fish surviving. If the Angling club's policy is that the pike be killed, I will have a problem, boycotting their club won't make the problem go away so I have a bit of thinking to do to come up with alternatives. |
| MALC | Beebs, Must admit that on a few waters that i pleasure fish they have a rule that states that any Pike or Zander caught MUST NOT BE RETURNED to the water. Well i'm afraid to say that i ALWAYS RETURN THEM ALIVE and will continue to do so even though i know that i'm breaking the rules of this fishery. In the past i will admit to taking away the odd Pike which has ended up on the bar-b-q to be eaten but i've never taken a Pike bigger than 5lb. ( now i'll get some flack for the last bit). Malc Fish with Friends @ MaggotDrowning.com and take £s from Dirk |
| Ziptrev | Not from me MALC, each to his own and if someone genuinely uses the fish for food, then thats fine by me. I've taken beautiful trout for a friend and just one for myself over the past few months, What's the difference. The other question in my mind is the diversity over size! You say not over 5 lbs and ESOX states that it is the smaller hungrier fish that eat the most. It seems 1 of my clubs agrees with you both, but even more extremely. They reluctantly accepted that I wouldnt kill the Pike, but asked me to put them in the Trent, UNDER 20lbs! they were quite happy to have the sport if the fish ever exceeded 20lbs! Seems double standards to me and I returned everything over 5 myself, as I am hasppy to catch fish this size! At another club, where I caught the 7 in a day, I returned them all! (On my own and lazy, Trent a bit further away!) I wish you every success beebs, but agree, walking out of the club, ruins your own sport and would solve nothing. Better to voice your opinion from inside. Cheers Trev ZiptrevShouldn't happen to a DOG! Edited by - Ziptrev on 11 June 2002 3:08:08 PM |
| beebs | Ok folks, here is the letter I've sent to the secretary of the fishing club> Dear Sir, I became a member of Farnborough And District Angling Society about two weeks ago and since had some very pleasant trips fishing at Shawfields lakes and last night at Hollybush Lakes. My enjoyment last night, however, was tainted somewhat when I met some fellow anglers fishing for pike with the sole intention of killing them. Their reasoning being that they affected the roach and rudd population. I understand their reasoning, although I do not agree with it. I have the receipt of payment as a temporary membership card since my booklet has not yet arrived and on the back of that, Rule 12 states that all fish caught in society waters must be returned alive. I am not nor ever have been in agreement with pike culling, believing it unnecessary and outdated in principle. I truly believe that pike regulate their own numbers and that any increase in smaller pike means more food for the larger fish. It is well documented that pike are cannibalistic and readily feed on their own species. Nature always finds a better balance without human intervention and I am of the opinion that pike in a water does the fish population no harm at all, since pike generally take dead, dying and sick fish, leaving a healthier, hardier stock of silver fish. I am not an ‘eco-warrior’, nor am I trying to cause trouble with fellow members, I am not even a pike fisherman, just a nature loving angler. I would like to fish for pike in the future, and if I could do that on my local Angling club water then that would be perfect. Hollybush lakes is two minutes from my home and I like to think that there would be a varied selection of fish there to accommodate all types of angler. If the pike must be removed from the waters, could there be an alternative to killing? Maybe relocation with the help of the Environment Agency? I would gladly offer my assistance in any other way but killing. I will not partake in the killing of healthy fish and any pike caught by me whether deliberately or accidentally will be returned alive. I would very much appreciate your views both personally and officially as Honourable Secretary of Farnborough Angling society and would like to know more about your policy toward pike within the society’s waters, Yours blah, blah, blah, Steve Will let you know if I get a response. |
| Ziptrev | Very good letter. Best of luck Trev ZiptrevShouldn't happen to a DOG! |
| darryl | good letter but you didn`t really put blah blah blah did you work`s for them who can`t fish |
| Simon R | We had a pike problem on a local lake up here in the north-east a few years ago. We contacted the Environment Agency, who informed us that the best control for small pike was big pike! However there must have been someone up here who wanted pike at the time, since they came and netted a section of the lake for us and removed around 40 pike weighing up to 5lbs. They did this free of charge, so I would certainly advise contacting them - you never know somebody in your area may want them. |
| Newt | bleebs - See "The Case For Pike". Article written by Leon Roskilly and posted on AN at http://anglersnet.co.uk/authors/leon14.htm . He wrote it mainly for anglers to use with water managers as it gives good, well reasoned arguments and might help change their minds. I know some folks have reported using it with success with their clubs. Newt Vail Edited by - Newt on 11 June 2002 9:16:48 PM |
| Trogg | quote:
It seems 1 of my clubs agrees with you both, but even more extremely. They reluctantly accepted that I wouldnt kill the Pike, but asked me to put them in the Trent, UNDER 20lbs!
Trev mate be careful what you say, this is classed as illegal movement of fish (ie moving fish from one water to another without a section 30 / licence) & basically you/ the club are breaking the law & risking spreading any disease the fish may have). Beebs Good for you on your attempt at getting a clear & concise answer as to how the rules are applied within your club, I hope as i am sure most of our fellow MDers do that the rule does indeed mean ALL fish & not just certain species!! If it does apply to predators just remind them that chub, perch & even carp will take other fish as food so do you also have to kill/ remove them. Alan  |
| Ziptrev | If you take the trouble to read Braddocks diaries as per my post, they come into the lake by way of the Trent flooding, so they are just being put back whence they came. I would rather do this than kill them, criminal record or not! The same at Derby Railway Club, Glazebrook. Cullens and Red House Lakes all adjacent to the Trent, as is Ully Gully (old Trent Bed before diverted for Sawley Weir) and Pride Lake, which I fish tomorrow, on same complex, but controlled by my Pride of Derby club ticket. Trev ZiptrevShouldn't happen to a DOG! Edited by - Ziptrev on 12 June 2002 02:23:03 AM |
| Trogg | Trev The way your post reads you seem to think i'm having a go at you & i'm not, you've got to look at it the way others would. If you had never fished or spoken to anyone at the waters you mention would you know that the pike entered via flooding?? All they would see is some angler putting a fish into the river which he had caught from the pool. Don't forget mate this is how other species like the danubian/european/wels catfish & Zander got into rivers that shouldn't/ didn't have an original stock of said fish. As i said trev & it was menat to be in your best interests be careful what you say. As for reading Archies site i've been visiting it since i first found it through a search engine at the begining of last year. Alan |
| Ziptrev | Then you will know that the entry of Pike through flooding was documented there on his site, well before I ever joined the club and learnt of their instructions ie yesterday! ZiptrevShouldn't happen to a DOG! Edited by - Ziptrev on 12 June 2002 02:35:20 AM |
| Trogg | I give up you've obviously not even attemtpted to read what i'm posting Trev. Like i said IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT ANY OF US THINK ITS WHAT OTHERS WHO DON'T KNOW THAT THE FISH ENTERED THE WATER THROUGH NATUREL OCCURENCES WILL THINK IF THEY SEE AN ANGLER PUTTING FISH FROM ONE WATER INTO ANOTHER Alan Edited by - Trogg on 12 June 2002 02:37:56 AM |
| Ziptrev | Doesnt matter what they THINK, they would haveto produce facts in any case brought forward and the evidence on the website would be brought forward. BUT on a locked fishery entrance, with only the members as key holders, it would have to be a tresspasser anyway LOL ZiptrevShouldn't happen to a DOG! |
| Newt | Now, now, boys. Behave yourselves. I mean, REALLY!!  Newt Vail |
| beebs | Gentlemen, your input is greatly appreciated, I have printed off a load of information from the links posted and the more I read, the convinced I am that these people are wrong. I sent the letter off by 1st class mail last night, so hopefully the sec. is reading it over his cornflakes this morning. The letter was carefully worded and thought about over a whole day, since my initial reaction was - "Where the *%&^ does your club and members get off thinking they can go around playing god with a naturally balanced lake. Only a complete  living in the dark ages believes your going to achieve anything by this barbaric witch hunt. These people want their equipment destroyed, going around killing good fish, in the name of improving the fishing." But I didn't write that, fortunately. Hi Newt, there is no 'silent' L in beebs! This was a nickname I was given around the age of 3 that stuck and never went away through school, college and working life. |
| Admin | Alan and Trev - This is in brief the contents of a telephone conversation that I have had with Mr Richard Britton of the Midlands Fisheries Division of the Environmemental Agency: I have asked him if he can clarify the position relating to the movement of fish between waters within a flood plain and this is his reply: " It is an offence. You are not allowed to move any fish from any water wether or not it is in a flood plain without consent from the EA. Any movements regardless of where the fish may have come from in the first instance is illegal under Section 30 of the Fish Introduction Act. Any individual or club seen to be committing such an act without consent would be prosecuted. Consent is rarely given to any persons to carry our such movements as it could potentially lead to the upset of the natural balance of one or both water courses. 9/10ths of all applications tend to be refused." If there are problems then with any species of fish then the Environmental Agency should be consulted before any person or persons act as even though they may think they are in the right, without permission you could well find yourself on the wrong side of the law. If you wish further information or guidance on this (or any other matter) please phone the General Enquiry Line 0845 9333111 Call this and they'll put you through to your local office. Trevor: quote:
If you take the trouble to read Braddocks diaries as per my post, they come into the lake by way of the Trent flooding, so they are just being put back whence they came. I would rather do this than kill them, criminal record or not!
With all due respect to you by acting this way you are as previously stated, acting outside of the law. Whatever is posted on a website or any other form of media or hearsay would not be admissable in your defence. Regards, Dave |
| beebs | I would also appreciate any links to arguments for pike culling, just so I can be better prepared for any other arguments that get thrown my way. I know this is an unusual request, but if I'm going to be arguing the point against, I would like to have a good idea of what I'll be facing. Thanks again, Steve. |
| Ziptrev | Right Dave, So the club are legally entitled to instruct me to kill all Pike? And If I follow the other suggestion of returning them to the Trent, from the 'flood plain' that the EA admit is their source, I face prosecution! if they see me! In other words, they support the 'Catch and kill ' policy regards Pike Thank you for highlighting more of the good they do and how they spend our licence money! Trev ZiptrevShouldn't happen to a DOG! |
| beebs | UPDATE My membership booklet came through today and in it states that pike can only be fished for between October 1st and March 14th of each season, so these people are breaking the club rules. I am fishing the lake again tonight and will be getting the names of anybody fishing for pike and reporting them. |
| Dave | Hi everyone, Here are some very good articles on Pike in your Waters from the Pike Anglers Club of GB (www.pacgb.com) that are in pdf format. You will need a copy of Acrobat Reader to open view them and then they can also be printed off: [url="http://freespace.virgin.net/vicky.mark/pdfs/pikeinyourwaters.pdf"]Pike in your Waters[/url] [url="http://freespace.virgin.net/vicky.mark/pdfs/review.pdf"]Review of the Scientific Basis for Pike Culls[/url] [url="http://freespace.virgin.net/vicky.mark/pdfs/synopsis.pdf"]The Effect of Pike Removal - A synopsis of scientific data[/url] If you don't have Acrobat Reader it can be downloaded for free [url="http://www.adobe.co.uk/products/acrobat/readstep2.html"]Here[/url] Dave |
| dave k | The reason many waters are suffering from so called Pike damage is mostly because of naive attitudes of the committee's. most of the waters having problems are match fished. and anglers have probally been removing the large pike for a long time, and they have removed the natural balance on the waters. remove the big-uns and the small jacks population will explode. I have not joined the PAC yet, but after finding their site a few months ago it wont be long. they are really doing great things for the humble Pike. Dave Kennedy http://usscangling.cjb.net |
| Cyprinid_boy | Do we think pike continuously swim around eating fish until they explode? Or maybe they target damaged or struggling fish as they could be easier to catch? So are people saying pike are bad bad fish and should never be in any water? Or maybe they have co-habited in a natural eco-system for quite a while? Do people think commercial fisheries would like to stock pike under 5lbs? Which one of you has this as a target fish when you leave the house? Do we think chucking a couple of small pike into a river, breaking the law and moving the problem elsewhere is the answer? Do we all think the EA came down to the said lake, netted the pike and reallocated them elsewhere? Or do we think they never went near another water body? (im sure of the answer to that). Now, i could answer every question in an adult fashion. To use the illegal movement of fish argument is weak. Example - Canal dammed with temporary structure, short section drained and fish need to be rescued (in we go). However, ILLEGAL to put them fish over the dam as it is now classed as a separate body, therefore consent is required (like stocking your pike into the river). Make any sense? No? Wouldn't bother with the illegal movement argument anymore as it ludicrous. This argument comes down to morals and the effect upon the lake and any future fisheries the fish will go to. Discuss? |