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 Has the Quality of Waggler Rods Peaked ?
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banksy
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Posted - 19 April 2007 :  12:18:00 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add banksy to your friends list
Few would argue that the quality and relative value for money has improved over the last 20 years, largely no doubt because most tackle is now manufactured in the Far East.

Poles become lighter, stiffer and stronger. Reels are smoother, with better line lay and are more reliable. There is a better choice of line and hooks for different applications. Feeder rods have improved.

But I bought two waggler rods in the 1980's, a Daiwa Connoisseur ZX and a Normark Titan 2000, both of which I believe have never been surpassed.
Except possibly by the Carbotec waggler rods, which my mate has, and which are no longer made (jealous jealous!)

Glass was lighter than split cane, and carbon was better than both, but development in rods seems to have stalled. Is this now as good as it gets, or is this a reflection of market demand for pole & feeder, at the expense of "proper" fishing ?

Your thoughts?



Dave

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Unholymoondog
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Posted - 19 April 2007 :  1:06:08 PM  Show Profile  Visit Unholymoondog's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Unholymoondog to your friends list
I'm waiting for the "carrot" rod It may surpass everything ??


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Craigo
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Posted - 19 April 2007 :  1:13:04 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Craigo to your friends list
titan II is better than the original IMO


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Don
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Posted - 19 April 2007 :  2:26:51 PM  Show Profile  Visit Don's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Don to your friends list
I still have my Daiwas and they were the only screw down reel seat models years ago, I have to agree that apart from the Carbonactive or Sentinent ranges that waggler and stickfloat rods(remember stick floats anyone?)seem to have kind of stalled and I agree that most of the innovative technology is being used in pole production. Theres no doubt though that eventually the wag n mag will make a comeback as all things tend to go in cycles.

Talking of rods I was surfing the net for summat else and came across this bargain at Trevs tackle http://www.trevstackle.com/content/...3ftmatchrod, I havent really done a lot of this "commercial carping" and tend to rely on kit I have had for years, but the silly prices that decent rods are going for nowadays may mean I'll soon need a bigger rod holdhall!

Just checked the link and it wont open so in short theres a 44.99 quid rod going for around 26.99 made by Middy for commercial fisheries which in my opinion is going to be an ideal rod for someone starting their fishing on commercial carp waters.
How tackle outlets can sell at these daft prices sometimes make me cynical and unable to beleive the RRP on any item of tackle. Guess its down to marketing but I'd sooner have a realistic/honest price to start with rather than hype/spin type prices that insult what little intelligence I have!


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ashtheangler
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Posted - 19 April 2007 :  2:30:52 PM  Show Profile  Visit ashtheangler's Homepage  Send ashtheangler an AOL message  Click to see ashtheangler's MSN Messenger address Bookmark this reply Add ashtheangler to your friends list
ive heard that a new compound is being made for rods - which is also going to be used in F1 cars! It's apparantly really light and strong, being the next best thing in the future after more research and development is made in to it


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KevC
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Posted - 19 April 2007 :  5:58:51 PM  Show Profile  Visit KevC's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add KevC to your friends list
the technology should still far behind the Japanese made rod, the Japanese love to keep they technolohy and don't give it out like 10yrs after!

Don't mind if the quality has peaked, just as the tecnology is so matured and the price can drop is alright!


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hempy
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Posted - 19 April 2007 :  6:37:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit hempy's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add hempy to your friends list
quote :
Originally posted by Don

waggler and stickfloat rods(remember stick floats anyone?)seem to have kind of stalled


Whats the difference Don?? I was reliably informed in another post that the modern rod is one that does it all, stick and waggler equally well.


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Don
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Posted - 19 April 2007 :  8:28:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit Don's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Don to your friends list
quote :
Originally posted by hempy

quote :
Originally posted by Don

waggler and stickfloat rods(remember stick floats anyone?)seem to have kind of stalled


Whats the difference Don?? I was reliably informed in another post that the modern rod is one that does it all, stick and waggler equally well.


The advice you have been given is probably ok as a "rule of thumb" you can in fact get away with using the modern rods for either waggler or stick float and if thats the only way you have ever fished then you probably wouldnt notice the difference in actions of a stickfloat rod and a waggler rod.

One rod would have,as a rule a spliced in tip and a entirely different action to the other rod which would probably be of a solid construction (no spliced in tip) and to many matchmen who cut their teeth on the Trent circuit the names of men who could make their wagglers and stickfloats dance remain and have become almost legends.
John Allerton, John Dean, Wayne Swinscoe, Benny Ashurst to name but a few.

These guys would no more use a waggler rod in place of a stickfloat rod than a pole angler would use a No3s elastic for carp or a No20s for targetting bleak!

It is far too simplistic to state that one rod will do all the jobs,if that was the case we wouldnt have bomb rods, feeder rods,commercial carping rods or indeed a myriad of different poles with many top two/top three and even four combinations.

Like I said the advice you have been given is to some extent okay with the modern type match rods, but you will not get the best out of a stickfloat with a waggler rod and nor will you get the best out of a waggler rod using a stickfloat.

The likes of former England Internationals Dave Harrell and Tommy Pickering would often start their matches on the Trent and the Severn with two identical stickfloat rods just in case they lost a rig or tangled,they would do the same with wagglers as well. I guess pretty much in the same way that Steve Ringer would have a dozen or more top kits made up when hes looking for fast furious bagging action on the pole.

Its a cliche but a good stick float rod should feel akin to an extension of your arm and having had the honour of watching the likes Of Allerton, Harell, Dean and of course Ken Giles put a stick through a swim is something,that, when I first witnessed it left me completely awestruck.

One rod may do the job fairly well but a purpose made rod in the hands of a master will outfish those who scoff at the differences between a stick and a waggler rod.

If you want any further explanations just ask because this is one of those subjects that a lot of anglers feel passionate about and often stirs up some great debates. I hope this helps


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smartmart16
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Posted - 19 April 2007 :  8:49:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit smartmart16's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add smartmart16 to your friends list
surely the new tournament wag rod has to be better than the old conny's.don't get me wrong i had a original conny and a conny z,but the tourny's are lighter,thinner diameter and definitely feel better when playing a fish.imho.


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hempy
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Posted - 19 April 2007 :  8:56:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit hempy's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add hempy to your friends list
Thats a wonderful statement about tackle design and applications Don
I am a Nottm chap as you will see and bought up on the stick at wilford and the road at BJ. I own what i consider 2 great rods, a shimano 390fast action stick and a shimano 390 response, both rods built for a purpose. I was discussing tackle designed for a specific job and called down by some posters who said the likes of QUOTE:-


""Also I have a feeling you havent picked up a high quality match rod for the last ten years, carbon technology has moved on a bit you can have a rod that is stiff as you like until the fish is on and then go right to the butt with out going close to locking up. Why would you want a rock hard rod with a spliced tip which knacks you up when you hook a better fish and why would you want a rod thats soft through the middle when you can have something as stiff as you like? Go and pick up a daiwa tournament match."" UNQUOTE

I believe as you do that a stick rod cannot perform fully the needs of a waggler rod, both will cast a line but not fish the same and anglers of the calibre you mention would know the difference.....in other words they will do the job properly that they were designed for.








Edited by - hempy on 19 April 2007 9:10:33 PM
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nick_gilbert
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Posted - 19 April 2007 :  10:20:18 PM  Show Profile  Visit nick_gilbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add nick_gilbert to your friends list
Is there a lot of difference between a waggler and stickfloat rod? I think not, could it be pure marketing hype?

To do both properly on a river you need a rod with a fast action, one of the best rods for the job produced in recent years for stick fishing at a resonable price is the Drennan DRX Ultralight Waggler.

It has been named the Ultralight Waggler for one reason, very few people would buy it nowadays if it was called the Drennan Ultralight Stickfloat!





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poleangler
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Posted - 19 April 2007 :  10:45:31 PM  Show Profile  Click to see poleangler's MSN Messenger address  Send poleangler a Yahoo! Message Bookmark this reply Add poleangler to your friends list
Bring back the Daiwa GF55's they were a good rod.
In answer to smartmart's reply about the tournament yes its good but it is also identical to the TDXM same blank different finish.
I have one of those and the extension fits mine perfect.
May be a lot of the rods are just revamped blanks made to look different what do you think.


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Don
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Posted - 20 April 2007 :  11:47:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit Don's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Don to your friends list
Sorry Nick but its not marketing hype a stickfloat will usually have the mainline floating a waggler will,as a rule,require the line to be sunk below the surface science dictates that both methods would need a different action on the strike.
I hasten to add that stickfloat rods and wagglers were developed many years before the current trend of "hype" and "spin" were used as marketing methods.

I entirely agree with "Hempy" but then again we are both Trent anglers and probably of a generation adrift,to some degree,with the current ideal of making a rod as stiff as a poker and using 10lb line to drag anything unfortunate (or stupid) enough to go for a bait. <
Slight exageration and a bit tongue in cheek but you can get my drift.

Benny Ashurst must take a lot of credit for the way float fishing developed and even though he was a renowned match angler he still enjoyed playing fish to the net rather than pulling em in like a trawlerman whereby the fish as no chance to give the angler some sport.

I agree Nick that theres a lot of "hype" used to try and sell tackle thesedays but the actions of a stick rod are entirely different to a waggler and both have their merits when fished in the right hands.

Fishing a stick with the right rod and a centrepin reel on the river Trent is still my all time favourite way of fishing and relaxing, I guess it transports me back to the days when fishing was a way to relax and enjoy the 'moment' and the catches were a bonus.

Thesedays I honestly beleive that people should be reminded that our sport is called "fishing" not "catching" and if they adapted the right frame of mind they would enjoy the "moment" as well. ;)


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gibby
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Posted - 20 April 2007 :  2:26:02 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add gibby to your friends list
I started fishing with a whole cane rod with a spliced split cane top and and then a hollow steel Apollo Taperflash. The quality of rods has improved radically, and in real terms, the cost has gone down, with a perfectly serviceable match rod, like the Shimano Hyperloop for under 50 quid. 40 years ago, to buy a comparable glass or cane rod of this quality would have cost the best part of a week's wages

With the lower cost (and growing affluence) has come 'specialist' rods. Whereas 30 or 40 years ago, you could get away with a hollow-glass 'float' road (which often had a threaded tip ring for a quiver or swing tip), now anglers who float fish both rivers and commercials may want several, one for the waggler, another for the stick and perhaps at 11' and 13' and 15' lengths to deal with different bankside conditions.

It is possible to use a waggler rod for trotting a stick, but arguably you won't get as much enjoyment from catching silvers on a rod really meant for hauling pastie carp our of the commercials as you would from a lighter rod meant for more delicate work.




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nick_gilbert
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Posted - 20 April 2007 :  3:19:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit nick_gilbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add nick_gilbert to your friends list
I'm not sure you really need that different a rod for fishing a wagler or stick on a river, both need to be fast actioned and light, I never liked them spliced tip stick rods myself.

You are right about having several rods gibby, I have 7 different float rods ranging from 11-15 ft!





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hempy
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Posted - 20 April 2007 :  5:18:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit hempy's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add hempy to your friends list
Thanks for that Don, your insight into the difference between the 2 rods is what i have always believed. The modern rods are usable for both jobs as a rod always has been within reason but to do the job properly you need the right tool. I have fished the Trent with some great anglers, Jan Porter, Roy Henson, Roy Toulson, Tony Greaves to name a few and they would never use a stick rod for fishing the wag and they were at the top of their game as the Trentmen.

You are right Nick, you dont needdifferent rods but you will get better performance from using the right one..


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nick_gilbert
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Posted - 20 April 2007 :  8:05:44 PM  Show Profile  Visit nick_gilbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add nick_gilbert to your friends list
One thing people seem to forget a good angler will catch well whatever rod, we are told we need certain rods for each job by sponsored anglers pushing the companies products. Even 20 years ago it was happening they were still promoting the sponsors product.

Can someone please explain the difference between a stick float and waggler rod that you would use on a river, as I have said both need to be of a fast action to work properly, or maybe I have been using stick rod for the waggler all along?

One of the best stick float anglers around rates the 14ft Drennan Ultralight Waggler as one of the best rods for the job. This rod is equally as good for river waggler fishing.

It seems to me more people put the tackle they use in front of more important things like feeding and presentation.





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cess monkey
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Posted - 20 April 2007 :  8:23:31 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cess monkey to your friends list
the best float rod i have, is my shakespere excelcior i have used loads of rods from match to power waggler and as of yet there has not been a better float rod IMO.


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brasem
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Posted - 20 April 2007 :  8:43:20 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add brasem to your friends list
quote :
Originally posted by nick_gilbert


Can someone please explain the difference between a stick float and waggler rod that you would use on a river, as I have said both need to be of a fast action to work properly, or maybe I have been using stick rod for the waggler all along?



Some years ago their was spliced tip rods for stick float fishing, and solid rods for waggler fishing. I think the terms now are progressive action or parabolic action. I currently use a 13ft carbonactive rod which I use for waggler fishing, and a 14ft sentient for my stick float fishing.The extra foot of length makes a massive difference!


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ropa
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Posted - 20 April 2007 :  8:45:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit ropa's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add ropa to your friends list
In your case brasem your lass reckons that extra inch makes a massive difference !!!!!!!


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brasem
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Posted - 20 April 2007 :  8:49:08 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add brasem to your friends list
Your right 10 inches instead of 9 helped my sex life greatly


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